Eagle Order 2nd Class or 4th?

[okha]

I have a Eagle order with swords comes in a red case. People tell me its the 4th class pin back, but on the case it comes in it says "Deutscher Adlerorden IIStufe Mit Schwertern" it translates "German Eagle Medal II stage with swords". I'm assuming this says it the 2nd class not 4th. I know these orders changed with time. It looks like the 4th order pinback, but the 4th order looks gold color, mine is silver. Has 900 21 stamped on the pin. I'd insert a photo but don't see any attachment methods. My question is, is it the 2nd or the 4th? What is the value between the two?

Thanks

[Flemming]

The Germans used grade one as the lower grade.
Take for instance the CCC, it comes in 3 grades, grade I is bronze, grade II is silver and grade III is gold. ( If I remember correctly)

Maybe that would explain your 4th grade "Erste stufe"?

Just a tought as I know nothing about these Eagle Order.
Also, a picture woudl sure help here.

/Flemming

PS Welcome to the forum

[Bob Hritz]

The 2nd Calss cross is gilt silver with white enamel. It should be marked only 900, or rarely 900 L/50.

In 1943, to the best of our knowledge, the PK numbering system came into effect. Those made from 1943 onward would be marked 900 21.

It is very common for these to be switched in the cases. Yours sounds like it has been dipped or cleaned, if the gilding is not present.

If yours is original and marked 900 21, I would believe it is the 1943 era 4th class.

Bob Hritz

[adren]

"Adlerorden II Stufe Mit Schwertern" is indeed 4th class of 1943, if marked 900 21 for godet brothers. If the eagles are silver, the gilding is gone, either from cleaning or by time. The original gilding should be gold.

If you want to post pictures, you need to be association member, it only costs 25$ a year and is well worth it!

Best Regards,

Adren

[Gregorio Torres]

Levels of the Eagle Order was changed in 1939 introducing new classes. So the original 2nd class from 1937 became the 4th class after 1939. Your cross was awarded before april 1939 when the changes were made.

[Peter J.]

Greg, the addition of swords came in 1939 and the change from "Stufe" to "Klasse" occourred in Dec. 1943.

cheers
Peter

[Gregorio Torres]

Reading and replying quickly I had thought in all this questions. So the explanation is clear. The box don´t belong to this cross. The case is for a II Stuffe w/o sword awarded before 1939 (as the case is ok for a pin back issue) and the cross was put inside sometimes after this date, most probably for some collector.

Greg, the addition of swords came in 1939 and the change from "Stufe" to "Klasse" occourred in Dec. 1943.

cheers
Peter

[adren]

I think the case is for after 1939 awarded 4th class pinback with swords, because it states "with swords" , that were instituted only after 1939

I think the case and cross are probably ok.

Best Regards,

Adren

[adren]

The 2nd Calss cross is gilt silver with white enamel. It should be marked only 900, or rarely 900 L/50.

In 1943, to the best of our knowledge, the PK numbering system came into effect. Those made from 1943 onward would be marked 900 21.

It is very common for these to be switched in the cases. Yours sounds like it has been dipped or cleaned, if the gilding is not present.

If yours is original and marked 900 21, I would believe it is the 1943 era 4th class.

Bob Hritz

Hello Bob,

there are many examples that are pre 1943 that are marked 900 21, one 3rd class neck cross was just sold at Helsinki auction marked 900 21 attributed to Finnish officer with award document dated 1941.

But the case text changed from "stufe" to "klasse" in the 1943 revision.

Best Regards,

Adren

[adren]

Eagle order grades are the most confusing subject, there were many transition pieces also, the 1943 revision did not change immediately and many transitional stock was used also.

Best Regards,

Adren

[adren]

This would be the 4th class "II stufe" that we are talking about now, 3rd class is the neck cross "I Stufe", 2nd class is neck cross with breast star and 1st Class is Grand Cross.

Very roughly that is, this is how for example Detlev Niemann Categorized them.

4th class pic:

[Peter J.]

"there are many examples that are pre 1943 that are marked 900 21, one 3rd class neck cross was just sold at Helsinki auction marked 900 21 attributed to Finnish officer with award document dated 1941."

Adren, I would love to see the provenance of that cross, as I don't think any collector seriously believe the PK-numbers came into existence as early as 1941! Or else the award was rendered at that date and the actual bestowal took place after 1943.

cheers
Peter

[adren]

"there are many examples that are pre 1943 that are marked 900 21, one 3rd class neck cross was just sold at Helsinki auction marked 900 21 attributed to Finnish officer with award document dated 1941."

Adren, I would love to see the provenance of that cross, as I don't think any collector seriously believe the PK-numbers came into existence as early as 1941! Or else the award was rendered at that date and the actual bestowal took place after 1943.

cheers
Peter

Do you mean that every eagle order that has 900 21 for godet is issued 1943 or later?

I don't know what the case was with that cross, the cross was marked on the ring for godet and award document was 1941 or 1942 latest, I will try to get a picture for you from auction catalog, do not have it currently.

It was awarded to finnish leutenant Bertel Rosenbröijer in Finnish cavalry who was mannerheims adjutant for a brief time before the war. Here is another award document from his grouping that was left unsold:

Here he is far right on the picture. Mannerheim made a return visit june 1942 to hitlers HQ, where many of his military attachea got eagle orders.


Best Regards,

Adren

[Peter J.]

"Do you mean that every eagle order that has 900 21 for godet is issued 1943 or later?"

Not necessarily, but I do believe that anything marked that way would not be available as early as 1941, which was the date you initially referred to.

Cheers
Peter

[adren]

"Do you mean that every eagle order that has 900 21 for godet is issued 1943 or later?"

Not necessarily, but I do believe that anything marked that way would not be available as early as 1941, which was the date you initially referred to.

Cheers
Peter

I will try to find out the exact year of the award document, it was sold through holmasto auction house in helsinki and in their catalog they only photographed the cross and included text "with document" .

The cross was marked "900 L/50" that was sold.

Best Regards,

Adren