Help re Spanish Blue Division Medals

[tom2001]

Okay, first of all, let me say I'm definitely not a WWII German militaria collector, spending all my time here on the US Militaria Forum. But I recently acquired a US medal grouping directly from the family, and included in it were 3 German medals.

Thanks to previous posts here, I IDed two of them as Blue Division medals. The rings are not hallmarked.

I'm about 99% sure that these are original period pieces brought home by the veteran, but just wanted to confirm that with experts on the board.

And, although I hate to ask, can anyone give me a general valuation for these two medals? (Yea, I hate responding to the "what's it worth" questions on the US Militaria Forum too!!)

Thanks in advance for the help!!

[redline09]

i dont know if they are original but price wise ive seen a few for sale on germanwarboot.com

all of his have no finnish left, selling priced from $95 with no ribbon - $145 with ribbon


http://www.germanwarbooty.com/medals%20m3673.htm

[Patrick W]

those are real German made ones probably by Deschler- 80 euros a piece would be about right

[Gregorio Torres]

Design looks ok, but Could you tell us what kind of hardware they are made of? These are commonly made in zink, color looks like patinated bronze or tomback and rust seems verdigris, and this is a tipical oxidation for cupper alloys, not zink. I has never seen one Blue Div medal pre 1945 made in other than zink. On the other hand, when originals, they haven´t to be necesarily made by Deschler. Other makers, like Steinhauer and Deumer made these medals too, with identical design (I supose dies were made for the same maker), except for the MM "1" on the ring for Deschler´s. On the other hand, original medals of these can be rarely brought by an american veteran. All the production of the three firms went to Spain directly, as only spaniards can be awarded with these. Just some of them were send in spring 1944 to Hof, in Bavaria, where 1500 men of theso called Blue Legion were prepared to come back to Spain, and they brought their medals to Spain with their baggage. Some spaniards worn this medal in 1945 when they fought in Waffen SS but almost all of them was fighting in the east front. Just some of them (5 older Blue Division soldiers plus 90 spanish worker recruited in Germany) ended their war in North Italy and surrendered to americans.
So, yours it´s a very strange find for several reasons, as you can see.

[rafaelega]

more about it

I do not know if it is my eye but I think the medal in the right place seems to have different width between several points in the border.

What dou you think about it?

[kenneth wolfe]

Both of these look textbook to me!



Kenneth

[blau250]

Looks fine to me also.
Watch the word "Rusia" for instance. Same features in both examples. same manufacture IMO.

[Gregorio Torres]

Both of these look textbook to me!



Kenneth

Is there any textbook saying this medals can be made in copper alloy?
I have found in all my life hundreds of these, I have in my collection more than 20 of them now, and It´s quite clear: They were made ALL in zink alloy.
Repeat: I can´t find anything wrong in the design, but If these are made in other than this hardware (as it looks from this pictures) they are fakes or some kind ultrarare items made as test for the following mass production.

[rafaelega]

I think the same that Gregorio. IMO are copies, not originals.

[kenneth wolfe]

I disagree these look 100% for me. Sure the color is not right but I guarantee these are made of zinc not some sort of copper alloy. I would buy these in a second and I have also held hundereds and personally own 40ish myself.

@Gregorio, this term "textbook" is an expression it does not mean that it is in a textbook just that it is what one would expect to see when looking for one. I agree with you 100% that if these are made of anything other then zinc or potmetal they would be highly suspect.

@Tom2001- if you weight these it should be pretty easy to validate originality as anything other then zinc or potmetal will weigh a great deal more, not only that it will I believe satisfy the critics.

Kenneth

[Gregorio Torres]

I disagree these look 100% for me. Sure the color is not right but I guarantee these are made of zinc not some sort of copper alloy. I would buy these in a second and I have also held hundereds and personally own 40ish myself.

@Gregorio, this term "textbook" is an expression it does not mean that it is in a textbook just that it is what one would expect to see when looking for one. I agree with you 100% that if these are made of anything other then zinc or potmetal they would be highly suspect.

@Tom2001- if you weight these it should be pretty easy to validate originality as anything other then zinc or potmetal will weigh a great deal more, not only that it will I believe satisfy the critics.

Kenneth

So, you are with me. We can´t say anymore if we don´t know the hardware.
Regards

[kenneth wolfe]

I may be confused by what you saying so when you say the hardware, do you mean the ring and loop? Or are you using the term hardware to refer to the entire piece? I agree with the statement that these have not been seen in a copper alloy and that if they are made of copper alloy (which I do not believe they are) they would not fit into the critiria in which one would normally expect original time period example to fit in to. I also agree that the design is perfect for what you should expect to see in a time period original, right down to the die imperfections. I think if tom2001 could provide us with a weight that would help to prove if it is or is not made of zinc.



Kenneth

[Gregorio Torres]

Dear Kenneth, of course, I´m meaning the entire medal, not the ring only.
The last fakes made in Poland have the same details than the original medals, too. And they are fakes. We´ll wait for Tom´s info about weight or hardware if he wish to clarify the question.