Hi
what do you think of this dak medal
thank you for your time and help
tony
what do you think of this dak medal
thank you for your time and help
tony
-
-
1
1. -
This is a close one but I would have to say no good. I see alot of ways that show signs of casting and the details aren't as sharpe as I would expect to see not only that the medal appears to be artificially aged as well as the ribbon (tea treatment).
KennethComment
-
dak medal
Hi
thanks kenneth for the info much appreciated
tonyComment
-
all the pock marks just scream cast and that ribbon is not correct. MattComment
-
I am not so sure that you medal is a fake at all.
From what I can tell from computer images it looks to be a plated variety. There are five main types which seem to follow the chronological order of this medal being issued
A/ The first type were solid bronze/ brass/ buntmetall with a distinctive ribbon with medium green color. Makers name on the left hand side.
B/ The second type were a zinc/ muck metal core with a thick bronze or copper type plating and a ribbon with a distictive lighter green color in it. Makers name on the left.
C/ The third type is a zinc base with thin bronze type/ heat painted finish and a wider range of ribbons. Makers name on the left on some examples but on others it is found on the right so this is the cross over model where they went from the first production to the second later types lacking the nice bronze color to them and some have become quite grey/ silvery over time.
D/ The forth type is a thicker zinc with a grey-black bake painted finish distinctive ribbon with medium green color and makers name on the right hand side
E/ The fifth type is silver in color and may or may not be plated with a wider range of ribbons and makers name on the right.
The example which you show here would appear to be either a type A/ or a type B/ where the buntmetal/ bronze plating has cooled a wee bit fast hence the orange peel type suface and effect. The surface of your medal is in no way the type of pock marks one encounters on a cast copy but I would need to have a hands on to be certain and to check if it is an A or a B. Your medal also has a lot of patina/ grime on one side from poor storage and reaction with moisture over a long period of time.
Some ribbons on some of my veteran brought back examples are soiled like your one from wear, African sun or just discoloration over time and again from poor storage.
What I am sharing with you here is based on a direct observation of 50 examples while I write this with almost 40 of them obtained directly from New Zealand veterans. Hopefully this is of some help and if it was me I would not be quiting this one quickly as a fake,
Chris
p.s. the "DE MARCHIS" at the very bottom of the medal is also worth of taking note of, on some examples it is impressed into the medal but on others like yours it is raised and sits above the medal surface.Last edited by 90th Light; 08-27-2010, 03:45 AM.Comment
-
??????The sun never turns white cloth brown. The browning of the ribbon is too uniform to have come fromSome ribbons on some of my veteran brought back examples are soiled like your one from wear, African sun or just discoloration over time and again from poor storage.Logic is the best tool in determining a repro. If it looks like air pockets from casting it probably is, if it appears to be artificial aged then it probably is.time and again from poor storage
I can see where the confusion comes in as this is a good copy and for most this would be a hard call as is the case with most good cast copies. This is also based on many, many, many in hand inspections of DAK medal.
KennethComment
-
[QUOTE=kenneth wolfe;4186183]??????
"The sun never turns white cloth brown. The browning of the ribbon is too uniform to have come from"
Several of the ribbons on the ones I have got from New Zealand soldiers brought back from North Africa have turned that color esp the ones which were picked up in Tunisia in May 1943 where the Germans retreated and had set some of their stores on fire to stop them falling into allied hands in tact. When the New Zealand soldiers came across this charred supply dump they fossick through what was left and what they could find, quite a few Italian Africa medals were found here but some had burn damage. In almost all cases of the ones exposed to the elements and the fire/ smoke the ribbons have gone brownish in color.
"Logic is the best tool in determining a repro. If it looks like air pockets from casting it probably is, if it appears to be artificial aged then it probably is".
That is not air casting from pockets of air, if it was then the lettering would not be as clear as it is and would also show pock marks, the helmets would have pocking and the Croc's teeth would be full of holes. That is the type of effect often seen when the metal has cooled too quickly. One sometimes sees it also on buntmetall Juncker flak badges which is another example of how this effect can in fact turn up on perfectly original items.
What appears to be artificial age may be from moisture damage but as I have explained above and added to the information, many examples of this medal were burnt in Tunisia in May 1943 so it may also be one of those showing damage from that.
"I can see where the confusion comes in as this is a good copy and for most this would be a hard call as is the case with most good cast copies. This is also based on many, many, many in hand inspections of DAK medal".
I agree there are cast copies but this is not one of them and if it is then please show me such a copy that is for sale right now any where else. Copies often turn up in numbers so if so then where are the others. I have handle several copies but never one like that.
and I have no doubt that many members have made many hands on inspections of the this medal for sure but right now in front of me I have 50 examples to compare with and 40 of those I got directly from New Zealanders who fought the German forces in North Africa and to a lesser extent Italy. Each I one documented where it came from and as much as I could find out about how they got it.
More than one of my veteran examples have chararteristics matching the medal which started this thread including the ribbon and they were taken straight out of the horses mouth so if the medal which started this thread was mine I would not be rushing to accept any advise I have been given here that it was fake.
Just want to make sure the current owner is aware that there are originals like his one and given a hands on inspection of then I would be able to say beyond doubt but based on computer images I see many postive signs,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 08-27-2010, 09:42 PM.Comment
-
Thank you
Thank you all for your information
very helpful
thank you again
tonyComment
-
The medal speaks for itself as does the ribbon. As the old saying goes buy the piece not the story (New Zealand). And here's what I mean read what 90th Light sayssaying that if this were a copy there would be more but he hasn't seen them then he directly contradictions himselfCopies often turn up in numbers so if so then where are the others.the ones I have got from New Zealand soldiers brought back from North Africa have turned that color esp the ones which were picked up in Tunisia in May 1943 where the Germans retreated and had set some of their stores on fire to stop them falling into allied hands in tact.
It seems kind of ironic that 90th Light is fighting tooth and nail to see this one come out as being original. Maybe it's because he has 40 or 50 that are of the same questionable nature. This seems like a vested interested in seeing them with a thumbs up and not an honest opinion on the medal itself.
So the fire damaged the medal causing it to be black which is only done through direct contact with the metal and yet it did not melt or burn the ribbon. This almost laughable
I have some fake ribbons and I will post some before and after pictures of the ribbon after I artificially age it.
KennethComment
-
Ken,Originally posted by kenneth wolfe View PostThe medal speaks for itself as does the ribbon. As the old saying goes buy the piece not the story (New Zealand). And here's what I mean read what 90th Light says saying that if this were a copy there would be more but he hasn't seen them then he directly contradictions himself .
It seems kind of ironic that 90th Light is fighting tooth and nail to see this one come out as being original. Maybe it's because he has 40 or 50 that are of the same questionable nature. This seems like a vested interested in seeing them with a thumbs up and not an honest opinion on the medal itself.
So the fire damaged the medal causing it to be black which is only done through direct contact with the metal and yet it did not melt or burn the ribbon. This almost laughable
I have some fake ribbons and I will post some before and after pictures of the ribbon after I artificially age it.
Kenneth
I got no vested interest in this at all and could not really care less about it. Just thought it might be of interest that the medal is not a fake and what I have picked up over the years
I apologise Ken, what would a guy from New Zealand with his silly stories about veteran bring-backs know about these compared to an "advanced" American collector and of course your right Ken.
As one advanced collector who I have asked repeatly to post on this forum what he has picked up in over 50 year and learnt from veterans so it is not lost forever when he can no longer share said to me " why bother they already know it all and they will only twist, mis-quote you or accuse you of self-interest "
You will certainly see me on the estand/ ebay trying to pass my 50 "bad" ones off on to poor unsuspecting collectors.................................yeah right got it !
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 08-28-2010, 05:59 PM.Comment
-
90th Light, very interesting thread, i enjoyed reading that !!!
I am thinking of buying this, what do you think ???Comment
-
Thank you, nice to know someone found it of benefit.Originally posted by Totenhead View Post
The example you show an image of looks to be a nice type A/ made of buntmetal with from what little I can see of it a possible sun faded ribbon typical of other examples I have seen brought back from Africa. Although I can not see the "DE MARCHIS" at the very bottom of the croc which is interesting so can you please confirm if it is there or not ?
If the price was right I would recommend buying it because in my opinion these are the most desirable type. Even better if it still has its safety pin attachment,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 08-31-2010, 03:40 AM.Comment
-
Hi 90th Light,
No sure what you mean by the "DE MARCHIS", i am new to these, i have not bought it yet, if it hasn't, is it a bad un ???
CheersComment
-
Look at post number 2, you will see it written just below the Croc whose mouth the two figures (Germany & Italy) are holding.Originally posted by Totenhead View Post
I think it is on the one you are thinking about buying but very faint and the impressed type.
Based on a computer image, I can see no problems with this example you want to buy and think it is worth getting esp. if you do not already have one. They are a true DAK/ Armee Afrika award,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 08-31-2010, 08:02 AM.Comment
Comment