Mine Rescue

[Thomas Bendixen]

What a deafening silence

KR, Thomas

[Thomas Bendixen]

...If you disagree with the "not a copy from your medal" ... well, then I think your optical sensors work different than the rest of us....

Yes if you define "the rest of us" as you, Durante, Pascal and Dion then I'm glad my "optical sensors" works different than yours.

I'll be posting it on the e-stand... who am I to rule a piece fake with so many competent scolars defending it.

Over and out

KR, Thomas

[Karsten S]

Hi Thomas,

So you posted this. It was fun to handle it.

I would be very surprised if there will not come some other explanation for this.

Just wait and see You can always beat a dead cow.

KR

Karsten

[Don D.]

That's a cheap shot Thomas. I expect better from you. It is ok to disagree in this hobby.

[Karsten S]

That's a cheap shot Thomas. I expect better from you. It is ok to disagree in this hobby.

Hi Don,

To be honest, I can understand Thomas's reaction, when you take the time to read the postings/ replies made.
Nepotism strikes ones mind, but that might just be me.

Anyway, good find on that mine rescue Thomas

KR

Karsten

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Thomas, thanks for the follow up with this thread and also willing to purchase a fake for the sake of study and research for our hobby.

Looking at your Souval medal, I would agree with you that it appears to be a fake. In my opinion, it is a cast fake of Dion's medal. What immediately jumps out to me is the lack of detail on the Souval badge compared with Dion's. Specifically the lack of detail in the oakleaf wreath around the swastika as well as the lack of veining in the eagle's feathers. So to me, it appears to be a casting of Dion's.

Whether Dion's is original wartime or not, and more importantly, who was the maker of it is still open to debate of course as the length of this thread proves.

Tom

p.s., regarding the lack of responses to this thread, I would just say that you have to give it some time for people to see and then also put a thoughtful response together. Also keep in mind that the most of the main contributors to this thread have been on holiday the past week or two, specifically Pascal and Dietrich. And it was father's day this weekend, so I am sure many of us were busy with family activities as well. Personally, I am glad that you posted this info here at WAF so that collectors will get a chance to see your find and read this informative thread.

Tom

[Don D.]

Hi Don,

To be honest, I can understand Thomas's reaction, when you take the time to read the postings/ replies made.
Nepotism strikes ones mind, but that might just be me.


Karsten

As in this posting Karsten?

[Karsten S]

As in this posting Karsten?

No Don,

This is nothing compared to what you will find, if you read the posts here.

KR

[Thomas Bendixen]

Don, I'm stating facts here and quote your fellow moderator Dietrich who tries to define his views as "the rest of us" where he is infact representing the minority here.

Don when you look at the compares in post 225 what do you think? Dosen't the design in letters, the eagles pronounced and downswept beak and not to mention the odd assymetrical upward tip of the eagles right wing match?

Tom: Is the upswept right wingtip a coinsidence? do you see any different angles in the letters? In short do you really think that we are looking at two different designs?

KR. Thomas

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dear Thomas, dear Karsten,

If I would have known that my comment, followed by a smilie, was so deeply insulting and disturbing to you two, I would not have done it.
It causes me great pain to see that this has upset you so much that even after the passing of more than 20 month no closure could happen and even now this seems to be something which is very important for you two!

I hope these words will provide you with some healing and we can move on. However, I can't promiss that a comment in good spirit, followed by a smilie (so it can be recognized by even the most thin skinned as a jokingly remark), might not be forthcomming in the future!

Back to the topic at hand ...

Sincerly yours,

Dietrich

[Karsten S]

No Problem at all Dietrich, I also think that we should go for the ball

I have to disagree with you. I think a discussion should be revived when new info surface thus. No matter how old it is. I am sure that you agree that this hobby is an ongoing process.

Just as a last note, you say that things are being misunderstood, and that it was not your intention to upset anybody. I am glad to hear that, but I can´t say it sounds very trustworthy, especially if one knows your merits.

It causes me great pain to see that this has upset you so much that even after the passing of more than 20 month no closure could happen and even now this seems to be something which is very important for you two!Dietrich

You just can´t help it

Focus on the medal, yes.... and looking forward to hear your opinion on the newest knowledge.

KR

Karsten

[Thomas Bendixen]

Dietrich I will ask you the same question as Don and Tom, are the presence of the upward pointing right wingtip on all three medals that I compare in post 225 not proof that the share the same design? Do you see differences anywhere in the letters? I have matched the oaks, the bow everything match.

KR, Thomas

[Dietrich Maerz]

Before I discuss further on, I want to know in writing what my "merits" in his opinion are, as Karsten so nicely puts it. So, what are they?

[Thomas Durante]

Tom: Is the upswept right wingtip a coinsidence? do you see any different angles in the letters? In short do you really think that we are looking at two different designs?

Hi Thomas,

There is no doubt they are similar designs, but there are differences to be seen, so therefore not the same dies (or not castings of eachother as has been theorized).

Simply compare the oakleaves on yours with Dions. Yours has a raised rim along the leaves, where Dion's are completely smooth. If Dion's was a casting of yours, then it would pick up some of these rims. But that is not the case, Dion's are completely smooth which says to me that his was made from a different die than yours.

And also the fact that it lacks the indention at the top of the rim. If Dion's were a casting of your medal, then it would have picked up the indention.

Looking at the Obverse, Dion's also does not have the indention, like yours does (which is not a tool mark IMO, but rather it was part of the stamping die to designate exactly where the suspension ring was to be positioned). Also appears to me that the lug on top of the hammer is different sizes between the two medals (yours is taller than Dion's).

So in summation, I still don't see how Dion's could be a casting of yours. They are similar designs, but not exactly the same which suggests different dies, probably supplied by the same die cutter. Just like the Vienna Design PAB makers, 14 designs that are 99% the same, yet slightly different in their own way to see that 14 different dies were used....by 14 different makers.

Its possible that we have dozens and dozens of makers for this medal (maybe 35, maybe more??), so I think we are just looking at two different makers here that share a similar design.

Your new badge, on the other hand appears to be a casting of Dion's medal. The detail is much weaker than on Dion's, so that would make sense.

Tom

p.s., Just FYI, I am heading out of town tomorrow for a long weekend, with no computer access until Sunday. Don't let the silence deafen you again.

[Thomas Bendixen]

Thanks Tom, no need to repeat tyhe missing toolmark. I will make some compares of the oaks.

Could you please tell me what you make of the pointy wingtip?

KR. Thomas