Questionable medal bars on e-stand

[luftkrieg]

Have been looking at these bars for awhile now and they do not sit right with me. The top bar (2-place) is fine but the other 2....

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=444066

In general what i do not like is the mounting style and the thick brown thread used (which is very clear to be seen on the 4-place bar).....looks just like the work of the famed Austrian faker...

The combination of the 3-place i have never heard tell of...the last medal i have seen, but never on a German bar...could be possible but could be another sign of the Austrian....he likes to use exotic foreign awards on his medal bars!! Not crazy about the pin and catch on the reverse either.

The 4-place i definately do not like the pin and catch on the reverse nor the glued on makers label... And i just wouldn't be too sure of the originality of some of the medals on there either!

Unfortunatley (?) one of them has sold (the 3-place)...

I would like to hear other collectors opinions.

Kind regards
Pierce

P.S. I have sent this thread to the seller and maybe he can post the pictures here for posterity.

[Erich B.]

I can't say yea or nay for the bars' construction details but the Gahr paper label looks like it came off of a mailing label.
Erich

[luftkrieg]

I now see that all medal bars are "sold" on the sales thread. Either some poor unknowing buyer has bought them or the seller knows what he has and wants the sales thread to disappear. If they have been bought as originals then the seller clearly did not tell this "buyer" about this thread.

I am sorry if this is all sounding harsh but i am adamant that yet another buyer is not caught out with these fakes!!

Either way the seller knows of this thread as of my first post yesterday. I just hope the buyers of both medal bars read this thread... and then of course make up their own minds. But i know where i stand on them, especially that 4-place bar.

Pierce

[luftkrieg]

3-place

[luftkrieg]

4-place. I also think this one has been artificially aged...

[Howard Kelley]

Hello to all.

Yes, these are my medals bars, which have all sold on the medal thread.

I am sorry for the delay in responding to this thread "discussing" the 3 medal bars listed in the forums for sell section. Due to Hurricane Alex, I have not been available till now to make a response to this thread.

First of all, I have owned these bars for several years and due finical problems am forced to sell.

These bar were posted in the following thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=33649

Post #318 (Mar. 2007)
Post#362 (Oct.2007)
Post #375 (Dec. 2007)

These items were posted for sale 9 days ago, 21st June 2010.

There have never been any concerns as to the originality of these pieces till now. An I am rather shocked and surprised. The medals on the bars are 100 percent original, and I stand behind every item I sell. I am not an expert on construction, however I do believe that these pieces were made during the period.


As to "luftkrieg's" personal attack upon me, accusing me of selling a fake item(s) and marking the items sold in order to close the thread......I am gravely insulted!

You sir, sent me a PM only five hours ago, informing me that you opened this thread. As I have already stated, I have had other more important issues to deal with.

If you wish to discuss the bars, please feel free.

However, if you continue to defame my character, then we will have a problem.

[Howard Kelley]

more photos of the 4 place bar.

[Larry Lipps]

Since I don't know medal bars, I can't comment on these. I do however know Howard and don't believe for a minute that he has intentionally sold bad items. I feel certain that if any of these pieces turn out to be bad, there won't be a problem for the buyer to return them. How about a little more maturity and a little less trigger finger please.

[luftkrieg]

Hello to all.

As to "luftkrieg's" personal attack upon me, accusing me of selling a fake item(s) and marking the items sold in order to close the thread......I am gravely insulted!

You sir, sent me a PM only five hours ago, informing me that you opened this thread. As I have already stated, I have had other more important issues to deal with.

If you wish to discuss the bars, please feel free.

However, if you continue to defame my character, then we will have a problem.

Howard,

Firstly i must apologise for my over-zealous remark it was not meant to be personal. It was just too coincidental for me at the time and i really am not sure about the bars. Also i could not be aware of your personal circumstances. I am sure you are a straight down-the-line kinda guy like most sellers here on WAF. Please accept my apology Howard, also sent via PM.

Perhaps you can direct the buyers to this thread?

Regarding the link you posted...the bars were posted there but not discussed and a lot more is now known about the Austrian faker and his work.

I will call on the medal bar experts to add their opinions regarding these bars as i seem to be standing alone here at the minute... I personally am going of what I have learned here on this forum regarding medal bars and to me they do not look period. I have collected and studied medal bars for many years and i am also going of that experience.

If they turn out to be good i will be more than happy to admit that i am wrong. I do sincerely hope they are.

My apologies again.

Kind regards
Pierce

[Howard Kelley]

Howard,

Firstly i must apologise for my over-zealous remark it was not meant to be personal. It was just too coincidental for me at the time and i really am not sure about the bars. Also i could not be aware of your personal circumstances. I am sure you are a straight down-the-line kinda guy like most sellers here on WAF. Please accept my apology Howard, also sent via PM.

Perhaps you can direct the buyers to this thread?

Regarding the link you posted...the bars were posted there but not discussed and a lot more is now known about the Austrian faker and his work.

I will call on the medal bar experts to add their opinions regarding these bars as i seem to be standing alone here at the minute... I personally am going of what I have learned here on this forum regarding medal bars and to me they do not look period. I have collected and studied medal bars for many years and i am also going of that experience.

If they turn out to be good i will be more than happy to admit that i am wrong. I do sincerely hope they are.

My apologies again.

Kind regards
Pierce

Hello Pierce,

Apology accepted.

Last night I contacted the buyers of the 3 place and 4 place bars.

They both have been informed of this thread.
As you can imagine they are both curious as to the out-come of this discussion.

Regards,
Howard

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Gentleman,

First and foremost, I am glad to see that you are man enough to apologize, Pierce. I did feel that your approach to this issue was a bit belligerent to say the least. I do realize that we can all become a little fired up when we see something that doesn't look right and our emotions can get the best of us.

And thank you, Howard, for being gracious enough to accept Pierce's apology.

Now on to medal bars...

The two-place bar by "ECK" is terrific and completely "textbook" to ECK's standards of assembly. I would have loved to buy that one myself. You
practically gave that one away, Howard.

The three-placer looks to have original medals and ribbons (except for the incorrect ribbon for the Hungarian award and which was noted by the seller). The assembly strikes me as a postwar put-together because it is not up to period construction standards, in my opinion. As Pierce mentioned, seeing an obscure foreign decoration like this on a German medal bar is indicative of the work of the Austrian medal bar forger. Also, this bar has a very simple ribbon-wrap and lacks ribbon rosettes: two more classic signs of the most common type of postwar put-together bar. I don't like the catch on this particular medal bar either. I guess you can try and rationalize this bar by saying that it is a homemade assembly, made by the recipient himself or a family member. Still, I cannot overcome my "gut feeling" about this bar and give it the benefit of the doubt. I am not at all comfortable with this bar and I would not want it for my collection. That is just my opinion, though. I could very well be wrong and the issue should be left up to the buyer. If the new buyer is happy after examining the item in-hand then that is all that really matters. Medal bar evaluation can be very tricky: lots of variables and "gray-area" involved here.

As far as the four-placer is concerned, I am really certain that that one is a postwar put-together bar. I have posted below, two pictures of a bar I owned that is identical in construction. This three-place bar goes way, way back to my younger years, when I was a bit more naive. Obviously, at the time I liked this medal bar or maybe it was just one of those quick impulse buys that many times one regrets. This bar was tucked away for many years and I seldom ever looked at it closely. More recently, I began to examine this bar closely. The more I looked, the more red flags I found. I became convinced that this bar was fake and I ended up hating it so much I tore it apart. Doing this confirmed my suspicions: The bar was crudely-made, both inside and out. The mounting plate was thin brass sheet. The hinge and catch were crudely-snipped brass sheet that were glued in place with either epoxy or what comes out of a hot glue gun. The underwrap was a white synthetic material that lit up under ultraviolet radiation. The ribbons had a few passes of thread on the ends but were mostly glued down too. The suspension rings were missing from all three medals and the medals were sewn to the underwrap only by their eyelets, which explains why there is so much thread on the medal eyelets. I was upset to see all this and angry at myself for buying it. But then, I felt relieved knowing that I eliminated a piece that had been polluting my collection for far too long. Rest assured that no one will ever end up with this piece-of-junk as it no longer exists. The similarities between this medal bar and the four-placer posted by Howard are striking and I believe that both were the work of the same individual. I agree with Pierce when he says that the ribbons look artificially dirtied. Even the patina on the medals does not look natural to me. I also agree that the paper label to Otto Gahr looks bad. As far as I know, assemblers did not use cheap paper labels on medal bars: They were either cloth or metal. I also do not believe that Otto Gahr assembled medals bars, or if they did, I would expect to see much better quality. Again, if the buyer is satisfied with the item once in-hand then that is what matters most.

Please take my opinion for whatever you think it's worth. Medal bars can be a minefield and sometimes complete certainty is not possible. Also, I did not want to become involved in this dispute, but I do so only in the hope of sharing information with others. I do not consider myself to be an expert in this or anything else for that matter. My opinion is just that, but I do offer it with the best of intentions.

Best regards,
Tom

[McCulloh]

IMHO #4 is a fake. Originals medals-made up bar, impossible combination (typical foreign award come-on).