LVF Croix de Guerre

[Rich Witt]

Anyone have solid experience with the LVF (Légion des Volontaires Français) Croix de Guerre? While I have seen and held a number of fakes, this one has all the right signs of being real.

Details:
It has a solid one-piece die struck center and arms, applied wreath, and the original watered ribbon drape material with twin-forked pin. (Most of the better fakes are cast from originals in two pieces, where you will see a fine line where the halves are soldered together, or made from cut down and modified 1939 Croix de Guerre components.) Appears to be Bronze.

Dimensions: Approx. 37mm High & Wide at Arms of Cross, 46mm from top of Susp. Ball to Bottom of Cross, Center 14.5mm across, Wreath 24mm across, 23mm high.

This one was acquired from a collection a number of years back, and was said to have originated from a French Dealer. As originals are not common, and even less so in the U.S., I would appreciate opinions on a solid market value as well.

Thank you, Rich

[Rene Chavez]

Hi,

Unfortunately what you have IMO is a reproduction. The Vichy eagle does not look even close to the real ones. If you search Ken Jasper International Militaria forum listed here you will find lots of info. relating to this Cross:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25471&page=4&pp=15&highlight=LVF

I also have a real one posted in my web site under French Legion Awards.

Rene Chavez
Http://axis101.bizland.com

[Rich Witt]

Hi,

Unfortunately what you have IMO is a reproduction. The Vichy eagle does not look even close to the real ones. If you search Ken Jasper International Militaria forum listed here you will find lots of info. relating to this Cross:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25471&page=4&pp=15&highlight=LVF

I also have a real one posted in my web site under French Legion Awards.

Rene Chavez
Http://axis101.bizland.com

Rene,
With all due respect, this information is not consistant with other images and information that I have seen in the past. I have yet to find an individual that has definitive information on the actual Wartime production of these medals. This is obviously difficult as the recipients of this decoration were generally considered traitors, and those manufacturing it did not want to be publicly known.

The ribbon on both your item, posted to your web site, and Prosper Keating's are not typically considered original French Made drape/ribbon material. They both look more recent, and exactly like some drape material that I recently picked up at SOS from a German Dealer. While a ribbon in itself does not mean a medal is original or not, is can be an indicator of something suspect.

I am hard pressed to believe that the medals were manufactured solely by cutting the arms off a 1939 strike, and reassembling with modified central medallions. As Keating comments on seeing original ABP parts/dies/??, I have seen images of ABP hallmarked medals similar to mine.

I currently own three (3) variations of this specific decoration, and at one time or another have been given differing opinions on which were good and which bad. One of the three is a well made casting of the item I listed here, leading me to believe you would logically try to reproduce off an original, and not off a fake.

As time permits I will post the other medals for discussion, as well as a web link to images of other variations in my Croix de Guerre collection.

Thank you for your input.

Regards, Rich

[J Howland]

Don't overestimate the intelligence of your generic faker. I remember very clearly back in the sixties encountering many fake castings of Souval-marked war badges - at a time when conventional collector wisdom held that no one in his right mind would ever buy a Souval piece, even as a filler. (You couldn't give away medals/badges marked "R/S" or with the Souval L/# on them!)

Fakers tend to make copies of what they can lay their hands on and, if the badge they find and use as a master is bogus - well, you can wind up with a copy of copy very easily...

Just some thoughts. I used to collect LVF stamps & covers. I'll be interested to see where this thread heads...

Jim

[Rich Witt]

Don't overestimate the intelligence of your generic faker. I remember very clearly back in the sixties encountering many fake castings of Souval-marked war badges - at a time when conventional collector wisdom held that no one in his right mind would ever buy a Souval piece, even as a filler. (You couldn't give away medals/badges marked "R/S" or with the Souval L/# on them!)

Fakers tend to make copies of what they can lay their hands on and, if the badge they find and use as a master is bogus - well, you can wind up with a copy of copy very easily...

Just some thoughts. I used to collect LVF stamps & covers. I'll be interested to see where this thread heads...

Jim

Jim,
I certainly agree with that possibility, and after a while no one knows what is good any more.

I also have a number of LVF Stamps, etc. and would appreciate some honest direction on value there. Not sure if this is the appropriate spot to post images of the stamps, but I will be posting more of the LVF CdG variations. I also have a copy of "Militaria" Magazine, with an apparently good article on rarer Croix de Guerre variations, but need a literal translation as this is the French Language edition and it doesn't translate smoothly with a pocket dictionary.

A while back I received another image of a medal exactly as mine from a serious collector of French Medals and Orders in the Netherlands, and he of course believes his to be good as well. From what I can make out in the images from the article, it appears the ribbons were of a watered silk vs. the flat pattern in Rene's pics.

Be no means am I ignoring, or being closed minded to the assessment Rene has made, but I just haven't been convinced either way yet.

Help there from anyone in the forum would be greatly appreciated. I can scan the article in specific formats (.pdf, .jpg, .bmp, etc.) for someone that would be willing to translate it back to me in English.

Thank you, Rich

[Rene Chavez]

Dear Rich,

I’m not sure what you mean that the information is not consistent. Granted there is very limited information on the LVF Cross but you can still find it. The reason I indicated that your LVF cross is a repro is because the design of the Vichy eagle is different. Attached below is an LVF repro that was on sale in eBay. The Vichy eagle looks very similar to yours.

In addition, David Littlejohns book “FOREIGN LEGIONS OF THE THIRD REICH” volume 2, page 287 in the Addendum section illustrates an LVF cross that shows the design of the Vichy eagle different than yours.

You can also find another LVF cross posted in my friends web site Hendrik’s Medal Corner:

http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/eng/F-Cdg.html

The information regarding the medals were manufactured solely by cutting the arms of the 1939 cross was obtained from an article written by the late Dr. Klietmann, who incidentally warned his readers about the like hood of fakes. I found this information from a small publication called “ORDENSFIDE-Beiträge zur Geschichte.”

The following criteria is found:

The cross should be light color bronze.

The cross was an adoption of the French official ww2 war cross whereby the 1939 cross was altered by adding the wreath, removing the obverse and reverse medallions and substituting them with other medallions, and very important removing the crossed swords. This leads Dr. Klitmann to write that on the interior of the lower cross arms some damage caused by the removal of the swords should be visible.

If you like your cross then so be it, I’m just providing some helpful information.

Kind regards
Rene Chavez
Http://axis101.bizland.com

[h.fenet]

Foreign Legions of 3rd Reich Vol 2--post a photo

Hi,

Unfortunately what you have IMO is a reproduction. The Vichy eagle does not look even close to the real ones. If you search Ken Jasper International Militaria forum listed here you will find lots of info. relating to this Cross:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25471&page=4&pp=15&highlight=LVF

I also have a real one posted in my web site under French Legion Awards.

Rene Chavez
Http://axis101.bizland.com

In Foreign Legions of the Third Reich Vol 2 there's a photo of one with accompanying text pointing out the discrepancies...This was in response to a photo of a fake in Vol 1. There may also be a photo in Vol 2 of a genuine Croix; I don't have the book in front of me at the moment.

[Dan E. Moe]

Pictures of this medal being worn?