Base metal used in EK's and WB's

[James Noble]

My question is this was the use of brass as a core material in some EK's and WB's just a ranbom choice or was it specially use for the Kriegsmarine?

[keifer kahn]

Brass based cores on ek,s and brass as a base metal for awards had nothing to do with awards for kriegsmarine personell.They got awarded eks and wound badges made from exactly the same base metal as heer,luftwaffe,etc.
In the case of eks ,brass was used by manufacturers as a substitute for iron centres simply as a manufacturers choice.Also before the strict guide lines pertaining to the manufacture of awards.(year escapes me).This habit was stopped after this period.Any manufacturers found using brass for centres after the introduction of the standards could find his manufacturing licence suspended or revoked.
Brass in the manufacture of other awards was practice uptill early 1942. Zink was introduced for the manufacture of the majority of awards, as brass was considered vital for the war industry and was diverted to the manufacture of armaments and equipment.

So,the use of brass in awards has nothing to do directly with the the kriegsmarine.

[Mark S.]

Keifer is correct on all counts.

I have, however, wondered if perhaps some of this KM/Brass theories are based not so much on fact, but possibly on lore? Naval people are a superstitious bunch to begin with, could it be perhaps that these guys deliberately sought out brass cored Iron Crosses, for reasons of their own?

.....just thinking out loud

[stdub]

I can only tell you that ALL Iron Crosses 1st. class I got from Kriegsmarine Veterans were brass cored! Never got an Iron cored from them.

Joerg

[James Noble]

Keifer, Thanks for sharing your information but if I may ask what is the source you base it on as I would like to read it myself as Mark must have read the same book as he stands behind you 100 percent. Mark, your analogy of superstitious navy personnel which they were, calls up an image of them sorting though EK's and WB's with a magnet in hand looking for the brass cored ones is pretty funny. And yes I do understand that there came a time when certain materials were put on a war strategic list and brass was more important for the manufacturing of shell casings than decorations. But I think I'll stick to the idea that brass was used primarily for the Kriegsmarine Ek's & WB's and yes some of them could have slipped though to other branches of the Wehrmacht until I see written proof to the contrary. That's just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions their like a$$holes everyone has one.

[Mark S.]

If you are looking for written proof, where is the written proof that the KM was only supposed to get brass cored Iron Crosses? Whats more, I am not aware of any special marks on brass cored crosses that seperates them from the rest, so how would they even know what they were getting?

Not to mention the LDO regulations, of which none exist that stipulate the Kreigsmarine receive brass cored crosses, which would have gone against pre-existing standards already in place that clearly designate what Iron Crosses are to be made of...and what they arent to be made of.

I would love to see some proof either way, and not the type written post war in a book by some retired US officer, or someone repeating what they were told from some pot bellied psuedo militaria dealer at a gun show.

Its easy enough to be bullish and demand the proof, but thats a two way street. We have all heard the reasons why the KM would want brass cored crosses - anti-corrosion, anti-magnetic (for torpedo loaders), etc...but I have yet to see any actual proof that this was by design, and not mere coincedence, tradition, or even susperstition. If this KM/Brass theory was true, then I suppose all the Kreigsmarine RKT had brass cored Knights Crosses too...

[keifer kahn]

James,
i would have to ask why you even posted this question?
you seem so entrenched in the "brass theory",i dont see what you expected to be told.

Not all facts are recorded in black and white,for ready perusal.there is a lot of knowledge on this very forum,that you wont find in any books.I consider my self fairly specialized (note i didnt say expert)in ss 8years and frank and reif solid back PAB,s.You certainly wont find any of the info i know on these awards in any books.Im talking die chararcteristics,etc.Not the general,"ït weighs this much",etc

if you dont believe Mark and I,then i suggest you discuss it with Gordon Williamson about brass and the LDO regulations.Gordon as you know is one of the moderators of the cross forum and a very well known author on the subject.He will also tell you the "brass"theory is a baseless rumour.

[James Noble]

Mark, I don't think asking for a name of a piece of reference material is being as you call it (Bullish and demanding) but I did take Keifer's advice and took a look at a thread by Gordon Williamson's on LDO regulations and his thoughts on the KM's brass theory. Here's what he has to say on the LDO "The LDO was NOT responsible for awards suppiled to the military EVER, only for private retail pieces. This is important. Comments are often made on the quality of awards such as "the LDO would never have allowed something like this to go out".
Frankly if the manufacturer supplied a Panzer Assault Badge in day-glo orange to the Präsidialkanzlei the LDO couldn't do a thing about it. Only the Präsidialkanzlei was responsible for official award pieces, the LDO only for restrikes/copies.
Even at the time (Uniformen Markt Issue 9, 1 May 1942) Dr. Doble felt it necessary to publish an announcement making it clear the restrictions on the LDOs authority. "the LDO is ONLY responsible for the manufacture and quality of orders etc. FOR PRIVATE RETAIL BUSINESS. Orders made though the Präsidialkanzlei for awards,and all associated technical matters are NOT to be dealt with by the LDO"...... To sum up.
"At the top of the tree sat the Ordenskanzlei, part of the Präsidialkanzlei des Führers (The Orders Office of Hitler's Chancellery). This alone had direct authority for the manufacture of all official awards until the end of the war, and authority over private manufacture until it was delegated to the LDO in 1940."
And as far as the brass for the KM theory Gordon doesn't go along with it either. But that's cool as it leaves room for more lively discussion.
Now lets say for the sake of argument they did allow brass to be used for the KM here's my theory on how they kept track of them. The KM places an order with the Präsidialkanzlei for X number of EKs and WBs they send said order out to one or more companies to fill, now they have to reset their stamping press's for the different type of material requested in this case brass as you wouldn't whack brass as hard as you would iron after you finish the requiered number to fill the order you send them off to paint and finish assembly in their own separate container which is marked Brass cored Eisernes Kreuz for the Kriegsmarine. Hey it could have happened that way.

[James Noble]

Keifer, The reason I posted this question in the first place was to gather some information on the subject which I have to thank you for pointing me in Gordon's direction. His thread on the LDO regulations was very interesting. That said I will have to agree there isn't anything written that states brass was to be used primarily in the construction of KM EK's cores but it still MY opinion that once they knew it was available the KM tried to get as much as they could for the reasons stated before about it being noncorrsive and antimagnetic now if that makes me deeply entrenched in the brass theory so be it. So lets just agree to respect each others opinon on this subject.

Now if your still interested in pin material used in Frank and Reif PAB's here's one I have that was issued in 1943 and is nonmagnetic.