Embroidered Aircraft Destruction Badge

[Tom Yanacek]

Then why didn't they follow suite with the TDB? You rarely see the embroidered version.
I am sure some test models or many of the badges we hold as fantasy were made. The balloon badge was made in a quantity of approx 24. Now do the math on the odds of having a real one. Not being closed minded, just being practical.

Maybe it has something to with the very late institution date of the Aircraft Destruction Badge. The TDB was instituted in March of 42, while the ADB was not instituted until January of 45. Initial production runs of metal TDBs may have created a large enough surplus that they could (in most cases) be awarded right up until the end of the war. By early 45, though, things may have been so bad that all they were able to produce in ADBs were crude, almost homemade versions. The ADB is so obscure that I would have difficulty believing in one unless it was from the grave of a fallen soldier, still attached to his tunic. But of course I would still not want it under those conditions because the dead should remain at peace. I wonder if there are any original wartime photos, showing an ADB in wear?

Best regards,
Tom

[Don D.]

We have talked about these periodically and it always comes back to looking for a period photo. Nothing yet.

[Tom Yanacek]

Didn't Leutnant Thofern have one of these ADBs along with the Balloon Badge?

[Don D.]

Maybe it has something to with the very late institution date of the Aircraft Destruction Badge. The TDB was instituted in March of 42, while the ADB was not instituted until January of 45. Initial production runs of metal TDBs may have created a large enough surplus that they could (in most cases) be awarded right up until the end of the war.Best regards,
Tom

These badges would have been sent to every Division as a basic unit of issue, perhaps in the hundreds (in the thousands for regular combat badges) for issue upon confirmation of the right to wear.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I too would have a hard time accepting an ADB for the simple reason that it was instituted in January 1945 and we know of badges that were instituted in 1944 that were most likely never produced. Examples would be the LW CCC and the LW Tank Battle Badge. These were certainly instituted, but no "conclusive" photgraphic evidence has ever surface of a LW CCC. There is however plenty of evidence with award documents and soldbuchs that show that the LW CCC was awarded, but the typical army version was actually handed out to recipients. To my knowledge, the same can be said about the LW Tank Battle Badge, no photographic evidence.

However, I think the ones that stand the best chance are the ones that are identical to the TDBs. I would think that the same makers would have been chosen to make the ADBs that made the TDBs, since they had the raw materials and even may have simply taken some stocks of TDBs, removed the tank and put on the airplane. So, I would expect the ADBs to be indentical in shape, material, finish, etc as accepted TDBs are.

Tom

[WARLORD]

All I can say about the ADB is that I was given the metal plane by my Uncle. He had obtained it in early 1945. It was aqs the 1957 type. Unfortunatly it has been misplaced many years ago.

Another point worth noting, it is highly possible that the badges as the Balloon, Sea Battle and Luftwaffe Tank Badges were produced, but in specimin form only. Dr Klietmann in an article referes to a number of Balloon badges being produced.

[Simon O.]

These badges would have been sent to every Division as a basic unit of issue, perhaps in the hundreds (in the thousands for regular combat badges) for issue upon confirmation of the right to wear.

Quite right Don.

Here's a page from the holdings of the 20 Geb. Armee for the second half of 1944. As you can see 70 TDB were issued to subordinate units for award with the army having just 35 remaining in stock.

[byterock]

The point I was raising about the balloon badge and the Air Sea badge is that we know it was given out in writing but no proof of it ever being made.

I looked as my old reference books and here is what I found

'Nazi War Medals' (1948?) Babin (not in there)
'German Decorations and Medals' (1952) Sawicki (not in there)

in English

and in German

'Die Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches' (1947?) Hessenthal (not in there)
'Fur Tapfekeit und Verdients', Klietmans I think mentions it but my german was never good enough to figure it out

It would be nice to see which books before the 1957 awards came out had it in it.

All of the above have the Warsaw shield and Air Sea badge but only one has the balloon badge but no pic of it.

[WARLORD]

Dr Klietmans book publishes in 1957 shows the Balloon Badge, and other badges not suppossed to have been produced. Thus before 1957. He sold some to David Littlejohn. These sales are from 11947 untill 1955.

[Rick C]

Well, I'm sending it out this week for a bit of a forensic 'once over' to include material, stitching, pasteboard & glue. After I hear back I'll post the results. With luck, we'll know something more definitive with regard it if it was made during the period or not.

I appreciate everyone's comments on this. Thanx! Rick C.

[Gramps]

When one has a controversial item, such as the ADB, one must realize that there always exists the possibility that it was in fact period produced yet, may not have been issued. I say this simply because many items exist that defy proof yet, should not be casually dismissed as being fake. The individual that does this is simply in my opinion exhibiting less knowledge of the subject and should not be taken seriously. Then, there are some who simply feel that they must say something, if nothing more than to hear the sound of their own voice. I'm certain that you will see a few of this category of item at the MAX Show or for that matter, any show and I can only offer the suggestion that if the price is right, grab it as the opportunity may never come your way again. Remember, everything is negotiable. I have seen items such as this even go for half cash, half trade.

[Simon O.]

I understand your point but it's a double edged sword and up to every collector to decide how far they're willing to gamble, because without provenance or any tangible way of verifying if something is genuine or not gambling is exactly what it is. Very dangerous and leaves the doors wide open to the unscrupulous.

Beside 'if the price is right, grab it' we can add 'if something seems to good to be true, it probably is'

[Jeff V]

Well, I'm sending it out this week for a bit of a forensic 'once over' to include material, stitching, pasteboard & glue. After I hear back I'll post the results. With luck, we'll know something more definitive with regard it if it was made during the period or not.

I appreciate everyone's comments on this. Thanx! Rick C.

Hi Rick, Since it has been over 1 year since you sent your piece off for scientific testing, can you please share the results like you said you were going to.
best wishes,
jeff

[Rick C]

Hi Jeff, guys

Funny how these threads you figure are dead & buried catch someone's attention and wake up for a bit. That's why it's real nice when folks don't yank out the photos or delete out their comments.

Anyway, in answer to Jeff's query, I sent it off to John Casino asking him to take a look. The long & short was that I didn't keep it. Sent it back. Got a refund with a smile & no harm done.

All the Best,

Rick Costello

[Jeff V]

Hi Rick, I figured as much. Thanks for the update.
best wishes,
jeff