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**dannyIII** · 07-19-2008, 02:14 PM

its original i think these are far to common to be faked as it is easy to find mint unissued ones at nearly all the militaria shows its probably harder to get a worn one without a packet

**bobcam1** · 07-19-2008, 04:11 PM

I should have been clearer....I had no doubts about it's originality....

but in MY experience, I've found the opposite to be the case.....I've found four worn ones, and this is the first unissued, packeted one that I've happened across at a show.....

Bob.

**Don D.** · 07-19-2008, 04:49 PM

Don't believe for a minute these are not faked.

Bob, a nice early bronze one imo.

**Tom Yanacek** · 07-19-2008, 05:07 PM

Hello Bob,

The ribbon worries me. Have you checked it with blacklight. The white looks to have neon glow in normal light, so I'm thinking it will really emit a glow under blacklight. I've seen so many of these zinc Westwall Medals paired with Carl Poellath, Schröbenhausen packets. In most cases, the ribbons strike me as reproductions. Another thing that has always concerned me about these Poellath-packeted Westwalls, is that you see so many of them. I have seen many dealers with hoards of these pieces for sale. I realize that it is entirely possible for huge stockpiles of these to exist in unissued condition. (Like the more recently discovered Deschler hoards.) But how come these Westwalls are never found with the medal wrapped in tissue paper and why do most of the ribbons with these appear to be reproduction?

Best regards,
Tom

**Tom Yanacek** · 07-19-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

Don't believe for a minute these are not faked.

Bob, a nice early bronze one imo.

I agree. Without a doubt, Westwall Medals are faked. Don't ever become complacent just because a medal is "common."

Bob- Could you let us know if that medal is zinc or bronze? It looks to me like it is zinc with a very good finish. The solid bronze types are usually of much better quality.

Best regards,
Tom

**bobcam1** · 07-19-2008, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by tyanacek View Post

I agree. Without a doubt, Westwall Medals are faked. Don't ever become complacent just because a medal is "common."

Bob- Could you let us know if that medal is zinc or bronze? It looks to me like it is zinc with a very good finish. The solid bronze types are usually of much better quality.

Best regards,
Tom

Tom,
Agreed.....Many people think that the more common issues aren't counterfeited, but I've been noticing many KVK's and Westwall medal copies around, lately, and some of the KVK copies are pretty good.
The Westwall in this thread seems to be bronze....The details are much sharper than the photos show. I checked the ribbon before buying, and it doesn't glow under black light.

Cheers,
Bob.

**MH184** · 07-19-2008, 08:27 PM

The medal looks like a normal zinc example, I would seriously doubt that was tombak - in fact I'm conivinced it's not by the looks of it.

The medal was reinstituted on the 10th October 1944 (2nd issue) as it ceased to be awarded as from the 31st January 1941, but you could purchase them through LDO outlets and retailors.

The packet is the second issue variety and regarding the tissue paper wrapping: such a late war reintroduction the merits of use off tiisue paper woul have been a less inclined luxury with an already packeted medal. As it was certainly at this period in time we have seen wound badges, KVK's to EK's etc in sole tissue/wax paper for distribution alone as a warranted packing.

Some medals do come wrapped some don't in packets anyway and to add to that it's 50/50 as to whether the ribbon was wrapped in tissue or just the medal.

I think concering these zinc ones with the Poellarth packets they weren't discovered with any ribbons nor where they in the packets, but have been of course 'paired up' for sales (both being Poellarth items as it were) I believe these weren't exactly the fully finished prouduct.

I saw such a couple of large boxes at Stuttgart two years ago literally stuffed full of packets and dozens of the loose medals at the bottom - no ribbons.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Kr

Marcus

**Tom Yanacek** · 07-19-2008, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Marcus Hatton View Post

I think concering these zinc ones with the Poellarth packets they weren't discovered with any ribbons nor where they in the packets, but have been of course 'paired up' for sales (both being Poellarth items as it were) I believe these weren't exactly the fully finished prouduct.

Hello Marcus,

What you say hear makes complete sense to me and I fully agree. Loose zinc medals, without ribbons and loose paper packets paired together for the collector market.

Best regards,
Tom

**Gary B** · 07-21-2008, 04:02 PM

Hi Bob,

From the looks of the medal pictured I believe this to be a zinc piece, but you can best determine this since you have it in hand. The bubbled finish etc lead me to believe it is zinc though.

A few years ago Manions was giving these packeted Westwall medals to kids at the MAX. Matt, my son, was the recipient of such a gift. The medal was zinc, packet was for Poellath and the ribbon glowed neon blue under UV light (probably an assembled set, as Marcus indicated)....so it is a good sign that your ribbon does not glow.

Gary B

**Ammersee** · 07-21-2008, 04:15 PM

The ribbon pictured above is new replacement ribbon. You can tell easily by looking at the edges. On the left edge you don't see any obvious "loops" that are seen on virtually all authentic old ribbons. On the right, not only are there no loops, but you can see an extra line of stitching right along the edge that does not appear on the left edge. This stitching on one edge only is common on replacement ribbons. The only old ribbons I've seen with this stitching on the edge was on some solid blue long service ribbon. On that, there was stitching on both edges.
My camera is getting cleaned and will be back in a couple days. I can take some close-up edge pics if you'd like. Ammersee

**Don D.** · 07-21-2008, 04:19 PM

It could be zink. A weight would tell for sure. I've owned several of each and none of my zink ones ever captured the grass in front of the pillbox this good.

**Tom Yanacek** · 07-21-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

It could be zink. A weight would tell for sure. I've owned several of each and none of my zink ones ever captured the grass in front of the pillbox this good.

Hello guys,

Pictured below are three examples (from left to right): early-quality solid bronze, early-quality solid tombak, and late-quality bronze-washed zinc. The bronze example weighs 17.9 grams, the tombak example weighs 16.6 grams, and the zinc example weighs 14.5 grams.
I agree that the example posted by Bob displays unusually distinct grass detail.
Another observation is that the early-quality examples usually have suspension rings that are soldered shut. The late-war issues are always found with split suspension rings.

Best regards,
Tom

Attached Files

westwall.JPG (144.5 KB, 129 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 07-21-2008, 05:30 PM

reverses (left to right): bronze, tombak, zinc

Attached Files

westwall rev..JPG (148.9 KB, 127 views)

**Ammersee** · 07-22-2008, 04:25 PM

Here's a pic of two pieces of "Ost Front" ribbon...one old original and one new.

On the left is a piece of old original ribbon. I got this from Dion who had a roll of this 25mm Ost ribbon. You can see the "loops" along both edges clearly, without magnification.

On the right is a piece of newly made ribbon I bought from Germany. You can see there are no distinct loops along the edge. If you look very closely, you will notice the edges of the new ribbon are slightly different. Under a magnifying glass the left edge of the ribbon on the right has very fine chain stitching while the other edge is plain. It is difficult to see with the naked eye but is easily seen under magnification. The thread used for this fine stitching is clear on some ribbon types making it harder to see.
Ammersee

Attached Files

DSC02698.JPG (83.2 KB, 106 views)

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