Ribbon bar

[Dennis GT]

I was not sure if this ribbon is OK. I do not know what the first ribbon is for and don't most bars start with an EK?

Dennis

[Chet Sowersby]

Dennis, I know zipp about these but doesn't the EK2 take presendence over a KvK? Besides that, is there a ribbon that takes presendence over an EK2?

Chet

[afrikasandman]

Im gonna say put together, the ribbons are out of sequence i would think, i don't have my ribbon bar book in front of me but pretty sure she is a put together. Matt

[Tony C]

Hmmm...I don't see any EK2 ribbon there??

[landsknechte]

Dennis, I know zipp about these but doesn't the EK2 take presendence over a KvK? Besides that, is there a ribbon that takes presendence over an EK2?

Chet

The EK2 would take precedence over a KVK, and absolutely everything else that could be worn on a ribbon bar. Not everybody had one though.

The first ribbon is the Mecklenburg-Schwerin Military Merit Cross 2nd Class. The KVK should be in first place, but there were enough old soldiers that disliked the idea of putting their WWI valor decorations after the KVK that it appearing in 2nd place would be perfectly normal. Having it after the Hindenburg Cross is a red flag though. There's nothing on this bar that absolutely screams fake, just a lot of little things that when added together would make me pass on it. The construction seems strange, and the apparent motor oil stains are a bad sign. That's a commonly used technique to fake age.

[McCulloh]

I am with Landknechte here except that note the KVK ribbon IS WITHOUT SWORDS, so it is a civil award. Civil awards followed wartime/combat awards, as a rule.
This is typical of somebody who was a Blockleiter in 1941-45 (note the NSDAP ribbon).
There were MANY WW1 soldiers who got state awards only and never merited an EK2.
However, I suggest you look VERY closely at that NSDAP eagle on the ribbon and check the famous ribbon bar article.
Having said that, while it may well have been "aged", it also looks ok to me. I suspect its original.

[landsknechte]

I am with Landknechte here except that note the KVK ribbon IS WITHOUT SWORDS, so it is a civil award. Civil awards followed wartime/combat awards, as a rule.
This is typical of somebody who was a Blockleiter in 1941-45 (note the NSDAP ribbon).
There were MANY WW1 soldiers who got state awards only and never merited an EK2.
However, I suggest you look VERY closely at that NSDAP eagle on the ribbon and check the famous ribbon bar article.
Having said that, while it may well have been "aged", it also looks ok to me. I suspect its original.

The KVK without swords has the same precendence as the version with swords, it's the War Merit Medal that differs. (The ribbon bar article has the regulations posted in it.)

[McCulloh]

True-but, as a general rule combat awards went first. No swords means a civilain awardee.
This is not an uncommon "mistake". Keep in mind that the KVK regs required clarification too after 1940.
To verify, please feel free to contact my cousin, the article's author.
I can give you his internet adddress, but I think you know where he is.

[Bob Coleman]

Looks Like A Fine Period Bar, Likely Worn By A Member Of The S A, N S K K Or A Political Leader.

[speedytop]

Hi McCulloh,

"... as a general rule combat awards went first. No swords means a civilain awardee."

Sorry, but that is not correct.

The KVK (Orden des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes) is a military award in wartime.
The difference with swords and without swords is in the term: "nicht unter feindlicher Waffeneinwirkung", approximately "not under enemy effect of weapons".

The order of precedence is unambiguous:
...
c) Decorations with ribbons:
1. EK (IC)
2. KVK with and without swords
...
6. Kriegsverdienstmedaille (War Merit Medal)
...
25. Other German orders and decorations for merit in WW I ...
26. Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges (Hindenburg Cross)
...

Regards
Uwe

[Chris Taylor]

Looks like a perfectly fine example of nice period bar.

Also, even though the KVK should technically be in front of the HK 1914-18, it's not uncommon to find them like this sometimes.

[McCulloh]

Hi McCulloh,

"... as a general rule combat awards went first. No swords means a civilain awardee."

Sorry, but that is not correct.

The KVK (Orden des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes) is a military award in wartime.
The difference with swords and without swords is in the term: "nicht unter feindlicher Waffeneinwirkung", approximately "not under enemy effect of weapons".

The order of precedence is unambiguous:
...
c) Decorations with ribbons:
1. EK (IC)
2. KVK with and without swords
...
6. Kriegsverdienstmedaille (War Merit Medal)
...
25. Other German orders and decorations for merit in WW I ...
26. Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges (Hindenburg Cross)
...

Regards
Uwe

Again true, but I stand by what I said above. This is a common "error" and one in-line with the "Kampf" ethos of National Socialism.
Swords were awarded for MILITARY (Wehrmacht,WSS,Kreigsmarine,Luftwaffe) persons or for being in combat as you say above. Signals men 200 miles from the nearest enemy combatant got it with swords. Army cooks sitting in Potsdam got it with swords. Even Wehrmacht attached Police Reservists shooting Jews got it with swords. Ten year old HiWis taking ammunition and supplies to troops on the Eastern front got it with swords. Nurses in the combat zone got it with swords.
Civilians at home got it without swords, even if they were wearing a party uniform of some sort.
There are LOTs of period photographs very clearly showing combat awards being worn before civilian awards. An error according to the strict regs., but a not uncommon one, especially for older veterans who thought their Mecklenburg Merit Cross, won for knocking out a MG post in Belgium in 1918, rated a bit higher than the KVK they got for passing out Winter Relief booklets.

[Chris Taylor]

If there is one thing that I've learned, it's that there are no absolutes in this hobby, especially when it comes to ribbon bars.

The rules concerning proper wear & prescidence seem to have been changed more frequently than Hitler's shorts.

And just as McCulloh said, sometimes vets or others saw things differently than the regs did.

Even if 99.9% of everyone, (soldier, political, civil & civilian), followed the regulations to the letter, that still would mean hundereds of thousands if not millions of bars that "ain't up to regs!".

Concerning the KVK placement, here is an example from my collection.

This bar beleonged to a WW1 vet & civil employee who thought his Saxe-Ernestine House Order, as well as his WW! service, was much more important than his KVK.

It's 100% period & is right as rain!

[McCulloh]

By the way, may I direct your attention to the new Ribbon Bar Artticle at the GMIC, Picture #18, "Devices, What Devices?".
Note the TWO separate ribbon bars and the photo, taken in late 1942-45, which demonstrates this bespectacled officer's (a WW1 veteran) out of precendence usage for his KVK.

[Noor]

Hello all,

I add as well few, what shows WW1 vets wrong way to wear ribbon bars after new rules during WW2...

Person with the really really long service wears Baltic cross ribbon in wrong place - second!!!!




Winter campaign after Württember bravery medal and Hindenburg cross



I am from Baden and I am proud!