Luftschutz 1st class in zinc

[Stan]

RLB Cross 1st Class

This is interesting information and I would be very interested in the source of your figure for awards made (Klietmann says the total number awarded was 150) and the known makers (is this based on manufacturers catalogues?).

One thing I can add is that the Lufschutz Ehrenzeichen 1st class was still included on the LDO price list of awards available for private purchase in late 1944.

James,

See Nimmergut "Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen bis 1945" Vol. IV p1935.

Stan

[mott5ranch]

This is interesting information and I would be very interested in the source of your figure for awards made (Klietmann says the total number awarded was 150) and the known makers (is this based on manufacturers catalogues?).

One thing I can add is that the Lufschutz Ehrenzeichen 1st class was still included on the LDO price list of awards available for private purchase in late 1944.

Klietmann's texts had an occasional typo here and there. This fact has been discussed before. 1500 sounds more realistic to me, again it;s an "I think" thing.

I forgot about them still being available for private purchase.
Thanks James.

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

Hi mott5ranch,

It seems very peculiar to me that you said that

As far as the gilt goes on my piece, well that's my fault. It had about 50% remaining, and it looked bad. When I was given my medal I was living in Germany in the mid 70's. Me and my old landlord, (a wehrmacht vet who fought in Stalingrad), cleaned it and a few other medals he had to make them look "cleaner." I followed his lead, it was a German thing.

but in your original post that you posted in 2003 you asked other forum members if these were supposed to be golden. Here's what you said

Does anyone have these? I have one 1st class, and the round 2nd class. Both of my old examples are zincers. The gilt has come off the 1st class cross. Weren't these gold? Is this common for these?

Maybe it's just me but if you got this from a German vet or so you say how can you ask the question weren't these golden? Did you forget and then all of a sudden remember. NO!!!! You didn't forget. Because later in your original post you said

I posted these hoping someone would have a nice 1st class example with the gilt still on it. I've never seen another one. This was the first one I had ever held and I bought it years ago from another collector in North Carolina.

You have taken the post personally and now have made up a story to try and validate your Luftschutz. Please stop trying to lead other members who are here to learn astray from the truth.


Kenneth

[WARLORD]

Possibly I am missing something about the discusion. Stan gives the known makers and the piece was made in tomback and fine zink. The miniatures are normally found in zink.

[Don D.]

I think that if 5-15000 of these were made we would see more of them. Numbers like that are comparable to RKs. Of course, if during the conduct of the war the repository for these was hit by some 500lbers from the 8th Airforce you would need to make more of them. Given that C.E.Juncker is postulated as a maker I would hazard to guess that whatever inventory they had went up in smoke with there firm.

[Don D.]

I think that if 5-15000 of these were made we would see more of them. Numbers like that are comparable to RKs. Of course, if during the conduct of the war the repository for these was hit by some 500lbers from the 8th Airforce you would need to make more of them. Given that C.E.Juncker is postulated as a maker I would hazard to guess that whatever inventory they had went up in smoke with there firm.

[Don D.]

Hi mott5ranch,

It seems very peculiar to me that you said that

but in your original post that you posted in 2003 you asked other forum members if these were supposed to be golden. Here's what you said
Maybe it's just me but if you got this from a German vet or so you say how can you ask the question weren't these golden? Did you forget and then all of a sudden remember. NO!!!! You didn't forget. Because later in your original post you said

You have taken the post personally and now have made up a story to try and validate your Luftschutz. Please stop trying to lead other members who are here to learn astray from the truth.


Kenneth

A little harsh don't you think Kenneth? Do you remember everything you did 30+ years ago? Would you admit to ruining a piece of militaria by cleaning it? I thin Gary deserves the benefit of doubt on this one and we can let the piece speak for itsself. Dietrich has sales lists from the 50's and beyond that show these awards were available post war for GIs.

[James Clark]

Possibly I am missing something about the discusion. Stan gives the known makers and the piece was made in tomback and fine zink. The miniatures are normally found in zink.

I can't add anything to the discussion about manufacture but I think the points at issue are:

1) What is the evidence that the award was produced by these "known makers"? How do we know these firms manufactured these awards? Where is the wartime evidence to back this up?

2) What is the evidence that full-size original awards were made in tomback and fine zinc? Clearly some people doubt that they were made in fine zinc - what wartime period proof is there that they were?

I'm posting this in an effort to clarify the points at issue - I have no particuar view on the manufacture of these awards.

[clevischi]

My point of view about it is: Why someone will make a good cast (because these zinc ones have some quality) and make only 3 know copies in about 5 years?
And this one was being offered for less than $1000... Its not so much work for something that cost so little? My opnion seeing another repro medals with equally price (like the SS 8 years) is a lack of quality in the copies, that canot be found in this Luftschutz one.

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

HI Don Doering,


I'm being harsh. mott5ranch said two totally different things about how he acquired the badge. In his original post he said he bought it from another collector many years ago but in this one where someone actually questions the authenticity of his Luftschutz he says that he got it from a vet (that fought in Stalingrad). I just don't like when someone posts something for opinions and gets mad when it's not the answer they want to hear. Not only that he's selling everyone on his BS story to try and give his badge some sort of providence because he believes it good. It's misleading. Especially for people who are new or learning. They hear him saying "this is a vet acquired piece" and people bite on it and it's not. He said it himself. Yes the piece should speak for itself and it has (Repro)


Kenneth

[Don D.]

Keep it civil.

[Peter J.]

"The miniatures are normally found in zink."

Chris, this is my understanding too. I've seen two different types of minis, one "solid" and one with the center cross cut-out. Are there any out there to illustrate these features?

cheers
Peter

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

Just thought I would take a look at this one again for a little bit more study and noticed the mott5ranch deleted all of his comments to include all the comments on his original post from 2003. Just remember folks some of these guys in this forum have a vested interest in proving that their medals are original and will lie to do so. Do not take "it came from a vet" line. Judge a medal on the medal!!!


This is for Don Doering:
You said I was too harsh? Why? Take a look at all the edits done by mott5ranch. If it were was just a case of forgetfulness then why go back and edit all of your posts and remove all the pictures of the medal?


Kenneth

[Andy B.]

I was just thinking, what are the possibilities that the 1st class was made by the Germans post May '45 and they sold them to the occupying Allied troops? If so, due to the metal shortages then maybe zincers were made, possibly off original dies.
Andy B

[byterock]

One thing that no one has commented on yet is that all of the so called 'zinkers' have a raised 'dot' at the centre of cross on the obverse. None of the examples I have examined (not many BTW) had the dot and none of the originals I have seen pics of have the dot.