Early tombak Ostmedaille in mint condition

[Chet Sowersby]

Ant,
Your medal appears to be numbered 93. If so, that makes it an example made by Richard Simm & Sohne. However, your packet is marked B.H. Mayer. Twenty-six is the assigned number to B.H. Mayer. So as you can see, it is a mis-matched medal and packet. Mis-matched medals and packets are a very common occurance with Ost Front Medals.

Chet

[Anthony N]

Thanks Chet, much appreciated.
I thought this was the case but for the price i was paying compared to the last 2 on the e-stand then the packet was pretty much free (funny thing is that everything else at the fair was more expensive than the e-stand!). I'll match it up one day!
Ant.

[Wim Vangossum]

Theo,

Given two examples, one tombak and one zinc, by the same maker I would say you would find your answer regarding weight. I have many Ostmedailles, but none by the same maker. From maker to maker weights differ considerably because of overall diminsions (thickness, width, etc.). I look for the brassy exposure of the base metal before making a judgment on whether it is zinc or tombak, not on appearance. I just don't have the experience yet to make these conclusions from appearance alone. The example I posted has these areas od brassy-colored metal where minimal wear is evident. Overall, I would say that a tombak piece would certainly weigh more than a zinc piece by the same maker. Isn't this true in the Luft. qual. badges? Why not here as well?

Robert

I don't give up that soon. . In Klietmann's book they give a list of the complete production steps for this medal. They applied a layer of brass(Yellow!) over the zink base alloy before the silvering! I am not try to argue with you but only hope that someone can clear this out with hard proof or technical info from the factories. For example: Detlev Niemann only talks about zinc as the alloy that was used for this medal. And again: I see the same differents in quality like you and the other collectors are seeing, but a few serious collectors here in Belgium and also in Germany speaking only of zinc.

Regards, Theo

[pantherv]

none

Nice buy, don't ya just love that E-Stand

Oh Yes.......

[Robert P.]

I don't give up that soon. . In Klietmann's book they give a list of the complete production steps for this medal. They applied a layer of brass(Yellow!) over the zink base alloy before the silvering! I am not try to argue with you but only hope that someone can clear this out with hard proof or technical info from the factories. For example: Detlev Niemann only talks about zinc as the alloy that was used for this medal. And again: I see the same differents in quality like you and the other collectors are seeing, but a few serious collectors here in Belgium and also in Germany speaking only of zinc.

Regards, Theo

Theo,

This is news to me, a brass layer over the zinc? What one of us needs to do is dig deeper into this brass and see if indeed there is zinc under this layer. Who will do it?

Robert

[Robert P.]

OK. First off, Theo, I want to state facts from my findings, no personal opinions, just facts. I sanded deeply into the back of the suspension loop area of one of my Ost medals, a brass-colored piece. As I sanded I kept looking (using a 10X loop) for a separation line that I expected to see between the brass layer you mentioned and the zinc core. I personally saw no layer of brass, but instead saw only more brass-colored metal. I sanded deeper, still brass-colored metal. Once again...same findings. The metal I found was brass-colored, not silver. I considered freshly-sanded zinc to look like silver or white metal until it oxidizes. But the metal was brass-colored. I then thought of weighing some medals that measured very closely alike. I first weighed the brass-colored Ost, next a marked Deschler, which was .56mm larger than the brass-colored medal. Very close in diameter. The findings are posted with the photo below. The first shot is of the medal before sanding, the second after sanding, and the third from the side to show the depth I sanded. And the fourth photo is of the weights and diameters. The larger of the two medals weighed less, 15.3 grains less. I have no way of knowing how much I sanded off from the smaller brass-colored medal. I also posted a photo (fifth photo down) that shows the thin silver layer peeling from the marked Deschler Ost. If you look closely at the separation line at the bottom rim of the helmet, you can see the very dark gray base metal. Please don't ask me to sand through the black to reveal what's under it. I think I already know what it is. Still no personal opinions. Under the 10X loop it appears very dark gray.
Please let the photos do the talking. My mind is completely open to any examples you have to offer. I want to learn more also, and find it very interesting that you found established manufacturing quidelines that tell of a layer of brass over the zinc. I think we're all anxious to see something concrete on this.

Respectfully,
Robert

[Robert P.]

after sanding...

[Robert P.]

Now look at the depth that I sanded on the left side....this certainly should have revealed the base metal I would think...??

[Robert P.]

The two examples I weighed and measured...the brass-colored medal on the left and the marked Deschler on the right.

[Robert P.]

Look at the rim of the helmet where the thin silver plating is lifting....this is the Deschler Ost...

I concede that the black I see at the rim's edge may be the applied blueing before the silver-plating was applied.???

[Robert P.]

For a parting shot here is an Ost example in a grouping that is really down to it's oxidized zinc core, just like the Silver IAB next to it. The Ost shows no sign of wear so-to-speak. It has just lost it's silver-plating (wash) over time, like the IAB did. There is no brass layer over the Ost medal, but just a slight hint of where the silver used to be. ???

Robert

[Chet Sowersby]

Considering that there were over three plus million of these medals made one would think that some were tombac examples. Especialy in the early phases of the Russian campagin. However, I don't think any of us know for sure. Generaly speaking I would buy into the brass washed zinc as we all know that this would make the medals hold their finish so much better. Later down the line these medals would exibit charcteristics of a tombac medal. Short of cutting one up totaly I just don't know for sure. I have several dozen of these and I am hesitant to say that any of them are comprized totaly of tombac.

Chet

[Robert P.]

Considering that there were over three plus million of these medals made one would think that some were tombac examples. Especialy in the early phases of the Russian campagin. However, I don't think any of us know for sure. Generaly speaking I would buy into the brass washed zinc as we all know that this would make the medals hold their finish so much better. Later down the line these medals would exibit charcteristics of a tombac medal. Short of cutting one up totaly I just don't know for sure. I have several dozen of these and I am hesitant to say that any of them are comprized totaly of tombac.

Chet

Chet,
I honestly think my destructive testing proved that this piece is indeed made of tombak, or tombac (sp). I don't know how far a guy has to dig in to it to finally conclude that it is tombak??? Should I get the hacksaw out?

Robert BTW, I found a nice little '1' on the ring of my Deschler w/packet.

[Chet Sowersby]

Robert,
I do not dispute your findings in this matter. Thank goodness these are still a reasonably priced badge that one can take a hacksaw to them. I truly appreciate your efforts to put this conterversy to rest. Please spare the beautifull numbered 63 that you posted.....

Chet

[Robert P.]

Thanks Chet,

I really hated doing this to one of my pieces, but I weighed it out and made the decision to examine it's core. I'm not biased one way or the other regarding the core material. I'm like everyone else with curiosity in this hobby. When questions arise I want to be open about them. All is gain.

Robert