Is the UV Light test the ultimate test?

[Nick_since_1985]

other items*

[Johann Anton]

Torsten,

GOOD thread. As Curt posted in a nicely detailed way, the Germans were leaders in producing synthetics, and were very proud of them. However polyester I believe, was invented in the late 40's, and will NEVER be present in wartime textiles.

I have always been of the belief that UV is only a usefull tool, and NOT the end all proof positive, but having said that, I have NEVER seen an original piece light up like neon. A slight glow, on occassion, but when compared to a modern white T-shirt, you should NEVER see that. Always move the light around, and back and forth, to be sure that you're not seeing a reflection of blue light, rather than a reaction to it.

UV can tell you other things as well. From my experience, white things 9 out of 10 times will turn a chalky yellow color. INCLUDING paper, as different whiteners were used. (without phosphates). I have also NEVER seen period paper light up neon. Check your photos guys, they WILL turn that flat dull yellow. ALSO, some colored dyes will look bright. For instance, Panzer pink turns a bright orange.

[Mike Kenny]

I have NEVER seen an original piece light up like neon.

Hi Johann,

Try some Panzer pink of LW Engineer pink - watch the neon orange show!

Regards
Mike K

[Johann Anton]

Must read my entire post...

"ALSO, some colored dyes will look bright. For instance, Panzer pink turns a bright orange."

[Mike Kenny]

Must read my entire post...

"ALSO, some colored dyes will look bright. For instance, Panzer pink turns a bright orange."

OK, dived in after the second paragraph

But that particular orange glow is NOT neon?!

[Johann Anton]

I've practiced a little with UV photography. I always like to use a piece of white modern paper as a frame of reference, of light-up neon. In the first comparrison, I've used very slight flash.

WHITE LIGHT

[Johann Anton]

Black Light

[Johann Anton]

In the second comparisson, I've used NO flash. Total blackout....

WHITE LIGHT

[Johann Anton]

*black Light

[torstenbel]

Johann, brilliant photographs and it really demonstrates the point made... thank you. Cheers, Torsten.

PS: And very nice uniforms of course...

[keifer kahn]

Interesting observation by Johann on the blackighting of white paper items.
Generally i too, have found many white paper items turn chalky yellow especially the majority of my white paper items.Some of my photos though(high-to semi gloss ones) turn a very dull, flat non glowing purple colour,which is basically just a reflection of the blacklight itself.
On a similar count, a lot of my documents/official papers,letters,etc on the creamy white coloured paper,also turn a very dull,flat non glowing purple.Once again a reflection of the blacklight.

When it comes to blacklight,its only one step,in a process of points to cover.
As long as items dont glow"NEON WHITE",like a modern t shirt,im relatively happy.Id also add that there are eqivalent number of fakes out there that dont glow at all.

[militaria.no]

Hi there, I have discussed this with others privately a couple of times over the years...what is your opinion...is the UV light test 100% accurate all the time? If the material does shine, is that an ultimate proof that it is post-1945 or were artificial fibers in use in Germany pre-1945? Of course, if it does not shine, then that is not proof at all that the material is pre-1945...what do you think?

Cheers, Torsten.

PS: What handheld or desktop UV Lamps would you recommend for collectors??

Hello!

Here is the proof that one single item can both 1.glow and 2. not glow in UV light/black light. This is an SS officer visor. At first sight it looks good, especially when you are new to this game and on about 1 meter distance. The faker has had something on the white piping – but he has forgotten to apply it underneath. So: Part of the piping glows in UV light/black light, part of it does not glow

So you can never know what a faker has done to fool you. And remember: Salty look might be just what it sounds like – a lot of salt and a couple of months outside. So don’t trust your black light without skepticism

Best regards
Marius

[Chris]

There is a lot of misunderstanding here about reaction to UV light. Fabric does not glow because it is synthetic. It glows (or not) because artificial, phosphate-based fabric optical brighteners have been used (or not) to make the whites appear "whiter" to the eye. Virtually all modern detergents, for example, contain phosphates, which is why your white T-shirt will glow after you wash it with a commercial washing machine detergent. (Only Woolite and several brands of quilt soap specifically do not contain phosphates.)

Optical brightening of fabrics was well known to German industry, but little used. In fact, the first patent for the chemical brightening of fabric was issued in Germany in 1897. Chemical brightening of white thread and other white fabrics was a rare practice in the Third Reich for two reasons: First, there was no reason to make whites appear brighter in military garments. Second, phosphorus was a rationed mineral and it was needed for other critical military manufacturing requirements, not cosmetic use in the textile industry.

Bottom line, as others have said: The black light is just one of many analytical tools, a dangerous one because collectors with less knowledge will rely on mechanical means (like the blacklight) too heavily. A few original garments or objects may have used artifically-brightened materials from pre-war stocks as a response to wartime shortages, or the garment may have been washed with a commercial detergent containing phosphates. (Drycleaning fluid is napthalene and does not contain phosphates.)

On paper: Optical (phosphate-based) brightening of paper categorically did not exist before WWII. If a document or photograph glows, it is postwar. However, as others have noted here, natural papers (not artificially brightened) are still available, so the absence of glow in paper does not conversely mean the item is original.

[Craigob]

great thread!. i went to a house once who answered my newspaper ad, they had a couple of armbands. they told me they had washed them since they were all dirty and wanted them to be clean so they looked better to sell. .

to the wifes credit she had handwashed them and they only glowed in spots, i still paid for them after doing a thread burn. So not everything that glows is bad

[torstenbel]

There is a lot of misunderstanding here about reaction to UV light. Fabric does not glow because it is synthetic. It glows (or not) because artificial, phosphate-based fabric optical brighteners have been used (or not) to make the whites appear "whiter" to the eye. Virtually all modern detergents, for example, contain phosphates, which is why your white T-shirt will glow after you wash it with a commercial washing machine detergent. (Only Woolite and several brands of quilt soap specifically do not contain phosphates.)

Optical brightening of fabrics was well known to German industry, but little used. In fact, the first patent for the chemical brightening of fabric was issued in Germany in 1897. Chemical brightening of white thread and other white fabrics was a rare practice in the Third Reich for two reasons: First, there was no reason to make whites appear brighter in military garments. Second, phosphorus was a rationed mineral and it was needed for other critical military manufacturing requirements, not cosmetic use in the textile industry.

Bottom line, as others have said: The black light is just one of many analytical tools, a dangerous one because collectors with less knowledge will rely on mechanical means (like the blacklight) too heavily. A few original garments or objects may have used artifically-brightened materials from pre-war stocks as a response to wartime shortages, or the garment may have been washed with a commercial detergent containing phosphates. (Drycleaning fluid is napthalene and does not contain phosphates.)

On paper: Optical (phosphate-based) brightening of paper categorically did not exist before WWII. If a document or photograph glows, it is postwar. However, as others have noted here, natural papers (not artificially brightened) are still available, so the absence of glow in paper does not conversely mean the item is original.

Chris, very good reply.... thank you...Cheers, Torsten.