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**Bruce Simcox** · 07-12-2005, 05:25 PM

Hi Torsten......

......try this link and then do a Forums search under rayon or synthetic:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=rayon

Hope this helps you some.

-------------------------

Bruce

**torstenbel** · 07-12-2005, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Bruce Simcox

......
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=rayon

:

wow...Bruce...brilliant

prooves my point and the point that some others have made...

now, would rayon have been the only artificially produced fibre in pre-1945 Germany???...CHeers, Torsten.

**CurtD** · 07-12-2005, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by torstenbel

wow...Bruce...brilliant

prooves my point and the point that some others have made...

now, would rayon have been the only artificially produced fibre in pre-1945 Germany???...CHeers, Torsten.

Cellulose was also widely used. I believe the correct German term is celleon. Rayon is basically spun cellulose.

It is techincally "synthetic", but comes from natural plant tissue. Nylon, polyester, etc. are not made from plant sources.

Late in the war, NSDAP cap chin cords were made of celleon. They look as gold as the day they were made. The earlier material was gilt wire and will tarnish.

Cap sweatshields were made of celluloid (nitrocellulose and camphor -- basically the same thing as film). Many caps, tunics, etc. were lined with rayon.

But, the blacklight test really only works on white fabric or paper.

I read the previous thread in the post above. But, in my experience, rayon does not glow. Nylon and polyester will glow.

When I have time, I will try to put together a comparison shot of an SS white circle next to a modern white sock. There is a huge difference.

Some collector's believe that there were indeed some plastic sweatshields and nylon threads used in the Third Reich. But to me, those are big warning signs.

Most of the thread in the TR was made of cotton and will not glow (unless tampered with as has been previously pointed out). TR aluminum thread has a white thread core. If it glows, it is most likely modern nylon or polyester.

White paper will glow if it has been bleached (like modern paper). I don't know when bleaching paper became standard, but most of the TR paper I have seen does not appear to be bleached.

**keifer kahn** · 07-13-2005, 02:26 AM

Dont forget Perlon, which is identical to nylon was developed in 1937 in germany.There are several articles in period magazines showing this.I believe there was thread showing the iron hanging on a thread of perlon some time back.Perlon is also mentioned in many books on synthetic fibres.Try your local library.

Pre war Perlon was used in areas such as scrubbing brushes,toothbrushes,gaiter elastic,straps ,etc.Anywhere a hard wearing fibre was needed.
It was earmarked as a war material early in ww2.Unfortunately all the records pertaining to perlon usage were in the russian zone of control at the end of hostilities,so information showing where perlon was used in the variuos war inustries is very minimal.

As i said try your local library.Ask for books on man made fibres.Perlon will be in them.

Last note,the base fibre makes absolutely no difference if it glows or not.It is the dyes used.Try blacklighting a piece of nylon fishing line.You will get absolutely no glow.On the other hand there are plenty of 100% cotton modern tshirts that glow like neon.
Id add in regards ot period items glowing ,it is a common fact amongst panzer collectors that period panzer pink is seen to glow fluorsescent orange.

**nellyp51** · 07-13-2005, 03:06 AM

UV testing is a good diagnostic tool and should always be considered, but it is not a sold case.

**Frans H.** · 07-13-2005, 03:52 AM

Hello Hans,

Thanks for your information! Learned something more about paper. So, using black light on paper is not a foolproof tool to determine originality. But, are there methods to determine the originality of paper used in World War 2? If so, I would love to know them.

Greetings,

Frans

Originally posted by Hans N

Hi Frans,

Yes black light can be used on paper but the outcome is more like a hint, not something to make a judgement from wether it´s a copy or not.

The problem with paper is, to my knowledge and i work in the branch, is that the black light will only show if a Brightness substance (used to make the paper more or less brighter) is used in the paper or not. Furthermore it´s still today possible to obtain a paper without the Brightness substance.

So a paper that not glows under black light is not a foolproof indication of orginality.

The same problem goes with for example what Ink that was used in the printingprocess.

I hope i explained it understandable

**CurtD** · 07-13-2005, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Frans H.

Hello Hans,

Thanks for your information! Learned something more about paper. So, using black light on paper is not a foolproof tool to determine originality. But, are there methods to determine the originality of paper used in World War 2? If so, I would love to know them.

Greetings,

Frans

I am sort of a geek-TV (court TV, Hist Chan, Disc, etc.) fanatic.

Here is an interesting story on one of the biggest document forgeries in recent history (several people ended up being murdered) -- The Hofmann Mormon Documents. UV light was used in the forensic process that uncovered the deception.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...2.html?sect=21

Another site on the same subject (go to the bottom of the page to start from the beginning):
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingch5.htm

This site has a lot of good information from a course at the Smithsonian and mentions how UV light was used to expose the fake Hitler Diaries
http://www.si.edu/scmre/relact/analysis.htm

And a story on the Vinland map that pundits are still arguing about:
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/is...nland_map.html

You can see that UV light is just one of the tools used in the forensic process. Unfortunately, you can't just turn on your cheap blacklight and get a quick answer.

That's why we have scientists with very expensive machines who's whole career is authenticating documents. And even they are sometimes wrong and disagree with one another.

Here's another worry for you: there is still plenty of WWII era paper, ink, and typewriters out there. How can you know for sure if it was typed 60 years ago or 1 year ago?

Most document forgers are a lot better than the crew at CBS.

**Hans N** · 07-13-2005, 05:19 PM

Very interesting links you posted Curt, thanks for sharing them

**Wesley's Dad** · 07-13-2005, 05:38 PM

UV Testing

A quick scan of this subject thread shows list dry cleaning fluids as a possible source of "glow", but I did not see menion of modern, household laundry detergents. If I missed it, sorry for the repeat info.

Point being that fabric washed in the likes of Tide, Gain, etc will probably glow, particularly lighter colored items. So it is quite possible to find that Wartime original SS M44 dot ensemble that glows like a velvet Led Zepplin poster in a head shop.

Still, this is a useful diagnostic tool. Generally speaked, all this talk about certain wartime fabrics aside, UV responsive glow should be a concern... but in itself it is not conclusive.

Mike

**Hugh W. Brock** · 07-14-2005, 08:58 AM

U.S. Technical Manual, Enemy 30-451, 15 March 1945, page IX-1:

"a. Prewar Developments. ....Because of anticipated strategic and production conditions, economic factors had great influence on the field uniforms. In particular, the necessity of stockpiling wool and cotton against probably wartime shortages caused the Germans to mix about 30 per cent of rayon with the wool of the uniform cloth. So carefully was this material prepared that the resultant uniforms suffered little actual loss of thermal efficiency and wearing quality."
"b. Wartime Developments. The prolongation of the war into 1942 resulted...in the use of a poorer quality of cloth. By the winter of 1943-44, the average wool content of the field uniform cloth had sunk to approximately 50 per cent. The wool itself was of low quality because it had been re-worked. These recent field uniforms present a shoddy appearance even when new."

Two things I know: I had a 100% original officer's modified enlisted tropical tunic in unused condition. Nothing on it glowed EXCEPT the thread used in shortening it (it was taken up in the sleeves and length).

Nylon white thread glows brightly with a blue-white color. Once you have seen it under black light, you can usually see it in normal light. Nylon is post war.

I have blacklighted many uniforms and I believe also that dry cleaning and laundering cause low level flourescence or else that the rayon content in some material does cause a weak glow. Black will look dull red sort of like the background for this page. It usually confuses me. I don't think I can count on it except peripherally and that other factors are more important.

Hugh Brock

**Frans H.** · 07-14-2005, 09:52 AM

Very interesting to read the links you posted Curt. Thanks for sharing them

Greetings,

Frans

Originally posted by CurtD

I am sort of a geek-TV (court TV, Hist Chan, Disc, etc.) fanatic.

Here is an interesting story on one of the biggest document forgeries in recent history (several people ended up being murdered) -- The Hofmann Mormon Documents. UV light was used in the forensic process that uncovered the deception.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...2.html?sect=21

Another site on the same subject (go to the bottom of the page to start from the beginning):
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingch5.htm

This site has a lot of good information from a course at the Smithsonian and mentions how UV light was used to expose the fake Hitler Diaries
http://www.si.edu/scmre/relact/analysis.htm

And a story on the Vinland map that pundits are still arguing about:
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/is...nland_map.html

You can see that UV light is just one of the tools used in the forensic process. Unfortunately, you can't just turn on your cheap blacklight and get a quick answer.

That's why we have scientists with very expensive machines who's whole career is authenticating documents. And even they are sometimes wrong and disagree with one another.

Here's another worry for you: there is still plenty of WWII era paper, ink, and typewriters out there. How can you know for sure if it was typed 60 years ago or 1 year ago?

Most document forgers are a lot better than the crew at CBS.

**Nick_since_1985** · 07-18-2005, 05:36 PM

I once got a flag that was a bit dirty but it didn't glance under the UV light...

When I washted it, it was clean, but it glanced...

(you may send that hittman now

)

**Nick_since_1985** · 07-18-2005, 05:39 PM

Personaly I think this thread is wrong,

The question should be (I'am reffering to myself)

If an item glanced under the UV lamp, would you still buy it???

**torstenbel** · 07-18-2005, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Nick_since_1985

The question should be (I'am reffering to myself)

If an item glanced under the UV lamp, would you still buy it???

and...would you? Cheers, Torsten.

**Nick_since_1985** · 07-18-2005, 07:20 PM

I would pass on it.

There other item out there to buy that don't glance...

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