German Crosses in Gold for the Gran Sasso raid?

[JYN]

More Pics !

Willi,

I heard somewhere about the book you are talking about. As a bookseller, I should have it already in the store I am working in; well, I will be in two days at the Frankfurt Book Fair. So, I will opened my eyes.
Anyway, let's enjoy two more pics about another wreck and the Hotel Campo Imperatore.

To all : Great informations you sent. Concerning the DKG. I think there is a film which is showing Heidrich giving awards to Mors and his men ?






Jean-Yves

[Willi Z.]

I think there is also a video available in Germany on the Gran Sasso operation. Since I can't view those here in the uS, I did not bother to get it. It was advertised in a German model aircraft magazine (maybe Swiss).

Willi

[Stijn David]

burning down the gliders

Hello,


Here is a more known picture out of my collection, one example of a DFS 230 that was put in flames because these planes could not be transported out of the Grann Sasso area anymore after the actual raid => the result can be vieuwed in one of teh pics. from our friend JYN ( sorry for the somehow not so good scan => im still elarninga fter my recent PC crash )

Enjoy,

[Willi Z.]

Superb photo! That could explain alot, in regards to why the gliders were found without any fabric after the raid. The US vet I know who went up there at the end of the war thought the Italians had stripped the gliders.

Willi

[Ian Tannahill]

Giday Everyone,

My appologies to the readers of this thread. Unfortunately, my comments above were not 100% correct.

The following information is taken from Greg Way's web site and concerns Reinhard Schietzsch. When asked whether Reinhard Schietzsch received an award for the role he played in the rescue of Mussolini, Reinhard Schietzsch's son Alan stated:

"It turns out that my father did not receive a medal for that operation - he instead traded his thanks/reward into admission to fighter training school, which was normally reserved for those of higher social class. He had plenty of knowledge, being both an apprentice aircraftsman at the Junkers (Dessau) works pre-war, in addition to his glider experience, but that had previously not been enough to get him past the class barrier into fighter school."

However Stijn, your list of glider pilots, which I assume you have taken from the book entitled, "Die deutschen Lastensegler Verbände 1937 - 1945", by Georg Schlaug, makes no mention of Reinhard Schietzsch.

Eighteen months ago I received an e-mail from the son of another glider pilot who was involved in the operation to rescue Mussolini. His comments seemed to suggest that Reinhard Schietzsch did in fact take part in the operation. Perhaps you may wish to confirm this with Herr Berenbold? He may remember whether Reinhard Schietzsch took part in the operation.

Best wishes,

Ian Tannahill

[Stijn David]

german crosses, gliders, etc ..

Hello ,


Thanks for the comments Willi , sometimes things are quite easy to explain but you must find the right source at the right moment ( in my case , the surviving glider vet from the Grann Sasso action )

@ Ian, indeed i have got the list out of the Schlaug book , strange thing however regarding your person " Reinhard Schietzsch " is for me that tehre where at the best of my knowledge 10 DFS 230 planes involved and the names of the involved glider pilots are listed ????????? , so where would that 11 pilot fit in ??????

Anyway i will contact Herr Berenbold again and ask him after your person + my friend Georg schlaug and ask him about it , I also will search my old lists if i can find his name anywhere , => it is stated ( and ususal for such daring glider missions ) that all persons ( gliders and Para's, etc ... ) received awards ( either EK 2, EK 1 or higher grades ) so that story would not go up IMHO and i think you must count on it that he made the story up to make himself look like a Hero ??? ( just suggestions offcoarse => but sometimes after many years persons can make up the greatest story's, etc ... just as they have been there ) , it is all very strange IMHO and it will need more research to say either yes he was there or nope he wasn't and he is making story's up.

Ian do you know if this Mr. Schietz is still alive ?

Cordial Greetings,

[Stijn David]

Reinhard Schietzsch

Hello Ian,


I have asked my glider friend ( quite old => now he is 86 years ) and he did not know the person you referr to : Reinhard Schietzsch , I have asked if he could recall the other glider pilots for the Grann Sasso mission and yes he could name them all by full name !!!!!!!!

My other (friend) source confirmed me exactly the same => never heard of that so called Herr Schietzsch , i think he is telling a fairytale as he was certainly not a GLider pilot at the Grann Sasso and i'm not so sure he was a glider pilot at all !!!!!! , so IM pretty sure you can ban his story to the nice told fantasy pieces

ps : Ian who was the other glider pilot that you are reffering to as involved in the Mussolini liberation , is he listed ?


Cordial Greetings,

[John Hodgin]

Veteran's "stories"

Thanks Stijn,

One has to be careful when accepting veteran's stories without some proof in photos or documentation. Over the years many have "enhanced" the memories of their service. To accept only verbal accounts as gospel is folly.

One veteran I met claimed to have been a Fallschirmjaeger; when I checked into his records I found he was in Luftwaffe Flak thoughout the war. Luftwaffe Flak soldiers were brave and dedicated, nothing to be ashamed of. For example, the 88 Batts. that served in North Africa kicked a-- for Rommel! So why this fellow altered the account of his service I do not understand...

Regards,
John

[Prosper Keating]

I knew the first ever Chelsea Pensioner - former soldiers living at the Royal Hospital in Chelsea, a military retirement home in Central London - with parachute wings back in the 1980s. Wierd sight, that quaint old outfit with bullion para wings adding a touch of the 20th century! He was also in charge of applictions from veterans to come and live there and he said that one the toughest parts of his job was deconstructing the enhanced career resumés of a lot of the old geezers and, in quite a few cases, stopping them from wearing campaign medals and even decorations they had actually never earned. In many instances, the old boys had told tall tales for so long that they were actually convinced that they really had 'been there'. Conversely, I know at least three Falklands vets who were there but who have been told when applying for replacement medals or checking their own records for accuracy that they were not there! Same goes for some guys who did Northern Ireland. So the records can lie too. One of my print-outs simply stated 'Yes' to a section "Previous military experience prior to 1984?". "Yes"! Very informative! For all I know, that may still be the only info on the army computer relating to my career before 1984. The monkey inputting the details must have been coming up for a peanut break or something!

PK

[David Lenk]

"Perhaps" Reinhard Schietzsch story is not fantasy? Maybe over time his original story has become a little distorted? I came across this record entry: <O</O

<O</O
12.09.1943 Sonderstaffel Heidenreich<O</O
<O</O

1 DFS 230 <O</O
Werk Nr. 122163 – No pilot listed <O</O
10% damaged after early tow release during training exercise.<O</O
<O</O

17.09.1943 Sonderstaffel Heidenreich<O</O
<O</O

DFS 230 <O</O
Werk Nr. 221307 - FF Uffz.Ronsdorf (Verwundet.) 60% <O</O
damaged by Gran Sasso <O</O
<O</O

DFS 230 <O</O
9 glider 100% destroyed by own troops at Gran Sasso
<O</O
This evidence pegs the question how many more glider pilots were part of Sonderstaffel Heidenreich? However it would appear that just 10 were used for the actual raid. Perhaps Reinhard Schietzsch was a reserve pilot or perhaps he was the pilot that crashed landed on the 12.09.1943? <O</O

[Ian Tannahill]

Giday David,


To the best of my knowledge there were at least two reserve glider pilots. (I used to correspond with the son of one of the reserve pilots. )

I believe that after the mission all of the glider pilots, including the reserve pilots, were presented with a photoalbum containing pictures of the raid. (My friend's father still has the photoalbum that he was given and I have seen copies of the pictures.)

Best wishes,

Ian

[Óscar G]

David,
I agree with Ian regarding Schietzsch,namely, that he was a reserve pilot. One matter is clear: he didn't take part in the Gran Sasso operation. As for the pilot whose Lastensegler crashed, he was Uffz. Ronsdorf (#8).
Best regards. Óscar

[David Lenk]

Ian,
<O</O
<O</O
With two reserve pilots that makes a complete staffel of 12 gliders and pilots, which makes a lot of sense – interestingly, this helps reinforce some of our assumptions in the past, regarding the concept of retaining reserve pilots for glider operations. <O</O
<O</O

Oscar,
<O</O
<O</O
Did you mean Ronsdorf crashed on the 12.07.1943 and 17.09.1943? <O</O
<O</O

Regards <O</O
David <O</O

[Gran Sasso]

Don't get me wrong: I admire Skorzeny hugely and he deserved the RK just for having the balls to climb into that plane with Gerlach and Mussolini. If you had ever stood on that boulder-strewn patch of mountain by the hotel, you would understand what I mean! They took off by rolling the plane over the precipice. As it fell like a stone, it gathered enough speed to obtain some lift. That's why Gerlach got the RK.

Skorzeny didn´t "had balls"! - with this stupid selfish behavior (entering the already overloaden "Storch") he risked the lives of his, Gerlach and Mussolini.
The paras who watched him entering the plane cannot understand what he was doing - no wonder the plane fell like a stone. So Gerlach was the only hero in the "Strorch".

[Óscar G]

Hi David,
Maybe the record belonging to 17.09.1943 is also related to the Gran Sasso operation. I may be wrong, but those entries refer to the same date/event.
In fact, The name of Sonderstaffel Heindenreich will come from the name of Oblt. Johannes Heidenreich. He, towether with Hauptmann Langguth (Ic in Student's staff at that time) were the officers on board the Henschel 126 which towed the gliders towards Campo Imperatore. Heidenreich was the person in charge of the Schleppstaffel /towing airplanes.
Enclosed is a photo which shows Ronsdorf, being helped by Uffz. Gedenk and an Italian soldier.
Best regards. Óscar