Quiztime - Spot The Difference

[Prosper Keating]

I realise that the APB comes under the heading of exotica but this might encourage some similar threads about different other FJ-related stuff.

Obviously one does not want to hand information to fakers on a plate but simple front and rear views of genuine badges won't be too helpful to them.



One of the badges in the pictures is a genuine 1937/38 2nd pattern aluminium Army Parachutists Badge by C E Juncker. The other is a fake. Which is which and why?

Let's see how many differences you can spot.

PK

[Steve T]

The badge on the left is a fake. Here's the reasoning, with reference to the fake in all points;
[list=1][*]First impression, it just looks too new.[*]The hinge assembly is too narrow.[*]The eagle looks slightly oversize.[*]The eagle has a more upswept top wing.[*]The pin wire diameter looks slightly oversized[*]The pin is too pointed, not rounded off[*]Wire catch diameter looks oversized.[*]Lack of detail to the feathers. Feathers also look too 'rounded'; example the first three on the top wing.[*]Reverse of eagle looks completely smooth whereas the real one has a slight pattern or grained type of look.[*]Rivet shape. Hard to tell but the rivets look too 'domed'.[/list=1]

[Frank Heukemes]

11. Suspicious scorch marks around hinge and catch.

Cheers, Frank H.

[JYN]

Hi,

After all Eric and you wrote on the Forum before, well, I will say without any doubt that the right one is a fake.
Jean-Yves

[Prosper Keating]

Hmmmmm. OK. Let's get in closer. Here are obverse and reverse studies of another example of the type of APB shown on the right in the comparison photo.




Here is another badge which is identical to the one on the left in the comparison photos.



Here is the reverse of the above badge. The discolouration described by Frank as a scorch mark and seen on this badge as well as the badge on the left in the comparison photo is in fact oxidisation of the solder breaking through the finish of the badge.



And here is an original 2nd pattern aluminium APB owned by one of the three members who have replied so far. The hook is a period repair.



Comments?

PK

[François SAEZ]

One is male the other is a female - What did I win ?

[Steve T]

Now those pictures should bring some more comments.

The fake shows pretty well in the first two less detailed photographs. I would guess that many collectors would not be able to positively ID the fake from the first pictures. For an experienced APB collector they would be enough and the bad points would 'jump out'.

Good Quiz Prosper

OK for a few quick new comments;

The fake is on the RIGHT...(Hmm..hope so, this is my second go..)

Detail -In the new detailed photographs the badge on the right shows a distinct lack of definition to the eagle feathers and wreath. I can see no attempt at hand finishing to the wreath, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's something I think originals would show.

Rivets - The pictures now give shape to the rivets, they are clearly different in shape and depth. The rivets on the left hand side badge look good where they just looked like a dome before. The fake shows no recess for the rivets and they look to be sitting higher than the wreath itself.

Quoting one of my points ealier; 'Reverse of eagle looks completely smooth whereas the real one has a slight pattern or grained type of look.' ........now the one on the left shows the surface look I thought I saw on the right hand badge! ...Lol

Wreath colours, clearly different.

[Prosper Keating]

Originally posted by François SAEZ
One is male the other is a female - What did I win ?

A day out in Boulogne-sur-Mer...

[Prosper Keating]

Originally posted by Steve T
Now those pictures should bring some more comments.

The fake shows pretty well in the first two less detailed photographs. I would guess that many collectors would not be able to positively ID the fake from the first pictures. For an experienced APB collector they would be enough and the bad points would 'jump out'.

Some of them would...



PK

[John Hodgin]

Thanks for this thread Prosper. I need to enroll in PK/Eric's APB 101 and read again all you and Eric have written. If I know anything about Fj, it's about 'cloth', not badges, especially badges as rare as this one....so this is an excellent lesson. To me, the fake is a good one......good fake that is.

In addition.
Steve is confusing me; and how come François gets too win? I can tell males from females as well..........

[Steve T]

Steve is confusing me; and how come François gets too win?

John, glad I'm not just confusing myself! Easy to clear up though.

In my first post I looked at the pictures and shot off a reply. I said the good badge was fake so I clearly didn't spot the correct badge when only the two relatively poor quality pictures were shown.

Only when I viewed the better pictures I could see which was the real one. I mentioned that I thought an experienced APB collector would have spotted the fake in the first picture whereas, a 'newbie' like me on Fallshirmjäger badges may not see it as a fake without good images.

I don't think François should get a prize yet, he didn't say which was female

Regards

[Prosper Keating]

I don't think François should get a prize yet, he didn't say which was female

A day out in Boulogne-sur-Mer isn't a prize. It's a punishment.

PK

Ah yes, John, that's a fake that has taken a lot of people in. Various dealers are still selling them as originals. But side-by-side with an original, the differences are very clear. Trouble is, few collectors have even seen an original let alone handled one so when presented with something that looks fairly convincing, out comes the cash.

Yes, the badge on the left in the comparison photos is an original. It belonged to Louis Helwig. It is in fact what I call a Type 2b in that it is a 2nd pattern aluminium APB but with minor detail differences such as a wreath 0.5mm thicker than the first 2nd pattern APBs - struck on the same die with a shim added to the die to increase its depth - and a slightly different pin and hinge assembly. The central part of the hinge - the tubular section welded to the pin, is slightly shorter than on earlier 2nd pattern APBs which had the same arrangement as 1st pattern APBs. And the pin is pointed rather than rounded. Apart from that, it's the same. These 'Type 2bs' were probably from the final production run before the suspension of the badge on January 1st 1939.

The example -not the fake but the original - in the large pictures and on our website, Majorplm.com, is mine and is identical to Helwig's badge. The other original 2nd pattern APB, the one with the period repair to the hook, did belong to me but now belongs to Steve T. It's an early 2nd pattern APB with the thinner wreath.

PK

OK...now here's another question. Referring to our article and this thread, how many types of Army Parachutists' Badge were there?

[Steve T]

Prosper,
Great thread. I thought it might be fun to try one from a completely different arm of service..
On the other hand it might be as interesting as a lead balloon. No harm in trying though

Quiz

[James Clark]

Aww - I could have got that from the first picture. In this context, new-looking one = original. Old-looking one = fake.

It's called a "double bluff" I think.

[Steve T]

James, you still have the next Quiz to have a go at ...see my post above yours.