When was the M38 helmets with Alu and Steel bolts made

[Jan43]

Even though I suspect that it will be a short thread I´ll give it a shot.

Question moved from the other thread.
Hi All
This SD ET M38 at The Ruptured Duck has a lot number of 39, which is made around August September 1942. It´s a bit hard to think that it are born
with other bolt than the slotted bolts it has right now, but do any of you helmet expert Guys out there see any obviously signs of recondition/reissue?

Just trying to find some answers to this question.
Best Jan

http://www.therupturedduck.com/H-298...oper-H-298.htm

[Jan43]

Steve(SMP) Corrected this.

SMP - Late 1940 I think.

Jan43

[Jan43]

Hi Steve
there were two possible dates for the helmet as the sequence starts over again, but I assumed that is were the latest because of the alu bolts,
but I can see that all the M38 from this period ND M38s, and this one is a SD, so you´re right Steve sorry.

Steve you´re a Helmet guy, what are your view on this? There are a awful lot of M38 that turns up with Alu/steel bolts in Brian Ice´s book,
esspecially from the start of the CKL production, in the period from Februar 1943 and onwards.

Best Jan

[falls1944]

Hi, Jan

Great idea. It will be an interesting thread if all the helmet's expert give an opinion....

David

[clint-magnum]

Jan,
I' m perhaps totally wrong but for me you will find the solution to your questions there where
the helmets were assembled . I believe the shells only were made by ET but not the liner and
chinstraps . They were either assembled by example by Werner Zahn , Mueller and all the
RBnr suppliers....

So no wonder if you meet early shells produced in big quantities ( not the apple green one) with late liner and late bolts . Probably also the decals were applied by the assembly .
why do some CKL still have one decal and the most not ?

[SMP]

Hi Steve
there were two possible dates for the helmet as the sequence starts over again, but I assumed that is were the latest because of the alu bolts,
but I can see that all the M38 from this period ND M38s, and this one is a SD, so you´re right Steve sorry.

Steve you´re a Helmet guy, what are your view on this? There are a awful lot of M38 that turns up with Alu/steel bolts in Brian Ice´s book,
esspecially from the start of the CKL production, in the period from Februar 1943 and onwards.

Best Jan

Hi Jan,

Can't help. I doubt if there is an answer anyway. Bolts are just bolts. They are easily changed in the field, or depot, not just on the assembly line. Maybe someone figured it better to avoid the need to use the special spanner tool and tried different alternatives ? Who knows. There are certainly a few batch numbers that show a distinctive mix of bolts, so these clearly come straight from the factory (or assembly plant). Others could have been switched at any time.
I doubt there will be a clear time line. The factory just uses what's in the parts bin at the time IMO.

Steve

[SMP]

Jan,
I' m perhaps totally wrong but for me you will find the solution to your questions there where
the helmets were assembled . I believe the shells only were made by ET but not the liner and
chinstraps . They were either assembled by example by Werner Zahn , Mueller and all the
RBnr suppliers....

So no wonder if you meet early shells produced in big quantities ( not the apple green one) with late liner and late bolts . Probably also the decals were applied by the assembly .
why do some CKL still have one decal and the most not ?

Indeed. It might be better to try to match bolts with liners, rather than shell lot numbers .

[Jan43]

Hi Roger and Steve
Both of you thanks a lot for your answers and opinions, which could help getting this thread going. I´m really not a Helmet guy but I´m trying to get my head around this, but as you both correctly say it´s hard if we can´t find any clear fix points to judge things out from. Maybe if we put our heads together then maybe we can find some of these fix points

There are still a lot of info to gather and swallow so I had hoped that some of you helmets guys had an angle on how we could "attack" this question.

I also have my eye on the assemblers that put the helmets together as they seem to each their own way to f.ex. sew their chin straps.

Steve I also totally agree with what you said "The factory just uses what's in the parts bin at the time IMO"

Roger About the quantities of helmets stamped. That is of cause an important question to answer. Were they just lying and waiting to be made or not?

I got the impression when I read/looked over Brian Ice´s book, that M38 sometimes are made in specific batches sequence, which could contain a lot of M38 one specific time and then sometime there could be big gaps and go a long time before another batches of M38. I could indicate that big batches were sometime ordered at specific times through out the war, which speaks for they were needed, which could also indicated that M38 shell weren't lying idle in big stocks waiting to be made, but maybe were made as soon as the were stamped(?).
I could be wrong and if anyone see it different please let me know.

As I said before I think one fix point could be that many M38s made by Müller (Ca. lot 3152 around Aug.1943) seems to have the specific Slotted Vented Alu. in the sides and slottet solid steel bolts in the back.

To the discussion on which Campaigns they were in, did any of you see the supposedly "liberated" from Cassino SD Alu helmet lot CKL 4254(Made sometime Okt. Nov.1943) by a polish soldier that were sold at the CG some years back. And the CG sold the helmet for his Family. I don´t know if the story is believable but here it is. Best Jan


Polish Soldier

His medals

TEXT
"Attached are his medals which were in a frame but I had to take them out. As mentioned earlier on joining the British army after the war he changed his name to ROY GRENNER and was a trooper in the ROYAL TANK REG. After a spell in the SAS in Malaya he ended his career in the PARACHUTE REG in the mid 60's
The medals are AFRICA STAR-ITALY STAR- 1939-45 STAR- DEFENCE MEDAL-1939-45 WAR MEDAL-
VITUTI MILITARI- MONTE CASSINO MEDAL-POLISH WAR MEDAL-
UN KOREA MEDAL-BRITISH KOREA MEDAL- SERVICE MEDAL WITH MALAYA CLASP


L013064 M38 SINGLE DECAL PARATROOPER'S HELMET WITH COVER. (Fallschirmjäger Stahlhelm M38)
BACKGROUND: As a result of observations of the Russian experimentation with the newly developing paratroop personnel in 1928 the Germans began serious consideration of also developing paratroop units and plans were drawn up for formation of such units in late 1935. Both the Luftwaffe and Army eventually established paratrooper units, consisting of voluntary personnel, on January 29TH 1936 and March 31ST 1937 respectively and a paratroop training school was established at Stendal in early 1937. Originally development of special clothing and equipment was undertaken by both branches of service to provide the paratroopers with functional items specifically designed with parachute jumps in mind until January 1ST 1939 when all the paratrooper units were transferred to control of the Luftwaffe. One of the items developed for the paratroopers was a specially designed helmet first introduced in 1935. This first pattern helmet was found unsuitable and a second pattern was introduced on June 16TH 1938, and remained in use until the end of the war with minor variations.
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: Second pattern, later war, stamped sheet steel construction, paratrooper helmet retains about 95% of its field-grey paint. The left side of the helmet has a second pattern, black detailed, off-white Luftwaffe eagle decal which is retained about 98%. All four of the liner retention bolts are intact and consist of the later, solid, slotted aluminum type. The interior of the helmet has a M38 tan leather liner, which is fully intact with a central stitched seam, twelve circular ventilation holes and black rubber padding to the aluminum helmet band and the interior crown. The liner is in overall very good condition showing normal sweat stains and use. The liner is well marked with black inkstamped sizing, "Kopfweite Gr. 58 Stahlhaube Gr. 68" (Head size 56, {referring to the liner} Shell size 68). The lining also has additional black inkstamps that include the designers name and location, "Baumuster: Heisler Berlin C2", and the manufacturers name and location, "Hersteller: F.W. Müller jr". Reverse interior apron has faint serial number stamp and manufacturers code with size, "CKL 68", indicating manufacture by Eisen-und Hüttenwerke, AG Thale/Harz, size 68. The helmet comes complete with a blue/grey leather construction, dual "Y" pattern chin harness with an age and usage darkened natural chamois leather reverse. The left side of the chin harness has a mid-war, magnetic gripper buckle with a small leather pull tab. The right side of the chin harness has a transverse piece of leather stitched to the end creating a "T", so the strap would not slip out of the buckle. The "T" end of the strap has a male snap with a corresponding female snap receiver on a sliding leather loop, designed for fit adjustment. The chin harness is fully intact and the leather is still quite supple. Helmet comes with its original, field made, printed, splinter pattern camouflage, paratrooper’s helmet cover. Two piece construction cover of medium weight cotton. Single piece side panel with vertical machine stitched seam to reverse center, and oval crown panel. Cover has a horizontal foliage band, roughly, 15mm wide, running around about the middle of the side panel. Foliage band is also present to the cover. Cover is completed with all six original attachment clips. Shows the expected period use and wear but overall nice condition. The "Collector's Guild is perfectly aware that this helmet cover is NOT a factory made cover. It is presented as a field-made cover with excellent provenance which close examination suggests is contemporary with the helmet, and it is priced accordingly."
Note; This particular helmet was captured by Roman Krsminski, a member of the 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade at Monte Casino. (Mr Krsminski won the Virtuti Militari at Monte Casino). The photos, above, of Mr Krsminski in uniform were ones that were published in a book about the second armoured division in italy -published in Rome in 1946. The medals are not included with the sale, but will remain with the family. We are now selling the helmet on behalf of the Family".

[SMP]

Hi Jan,

Do you have a clearer picture of the eagle on that helmet you just posted ?

Thanks,

Steve

[WalterB]

To the discussion on which Campaigns they were in, did any of you see the supposedly "liberated" from Cassino SD Alu helmet lot CKL 4254(Made sometime Okt. Nov.1943) by a polish soldier that were sold at the CG some years back. And the CG sold the helmet for his Family. I don´t know if the story is believable but here it is. Best Jan


Polish Soldier

His medals

TEXT
"Attached are his medals which were in a frame but I had to take them out. As mentioned earlier on joining the British army after the war he changed his name to ROY GRENNER and was a trooper in the ROYAL TANK REG. After a spell in the SAS in Malaya he ended his career in the PARACHUTE REG in the mid 60's
The medals are AFRICA STAR-ITALY STAR- 1939-45 STAR- DEFENCE MEDAL-1939-45 WAR MEDAL-
VITUTI MILITARI- MONTE CASSINO MEDAL-POLISH WAR MEDAL-
UN KOREA MEDAL-BRITISH KOREA MEDAL- SERVICE MEDAL WITH MALAYA CLASP


L013064 M38 SINGLE DECAL PARATROOPER'S HELMET WITH COVER. (Fallschirmjäger Stahlhelm M38)
BACKGROUND: As a result of observations of the Russian experimentation with the newly developing paratroop personnel in 1928 the Germans began serious consideration of also developing paratroop units and plans were drawn up for formation of such units in late 1935. Both the Luftwaffe and Army eventually established paratrooper units, consisting of voluntary personnel, on January 29TH 1936 and March 31ST 1937 respectively and a paratroop training school was established at Stendal in early 1937. Originally development of special clothing and equipment was undertaken by both branches of service to provide the paratroopers with functional items specifically designed with parachute jumps in mind until January 1ST 1939 when all the paratrooper units were transferred to control of the Luftwaffe. One of the items developed for the paratroopers was a specially designed helmet first introduced in 1935. This first pattern helmet was found unsuitable and a second pattern was introduced on June 16TH 1938, and remained in use until the end of the war with minor variations.
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: Second pattern, later war, stamped sheet steel construction, paratrooper helmet retains about 95% of its field-grey paint. The left side of the helmet has a second pattern, black detailed, off-white Luftwaffe eagle decal which is retained about 98%. All four of the liner retention bolts are intact and consist of the later, solid, slotted aluminum type. The interior of the helmet has a M38 tan leather liner, which is fully intact with a central stitched seam, twelve circular ventilation holes and black rubber padding to the aluminum helmet band and the interior crown. The liner is in overall very good condition showing normal sweat stains and use. The liner is well marked with black inkstamped sizing, "Kopfweite Gr. 58 Stahlhaube Gr. 68" (Head size 56, {referring to the liner} Shell size 68). The lining also has additional black inkstamps that include the designers name and location, "Baumuster: Heisler Berlin C2", and the manufacturers name and location, "Hersteller: F.W. Müller jr". Reverse interior apron has faint serial number stamp and manufacturers code with size, "CKL 68", indicating manufacture by Eisen-und Hüttenwerke, AG Thale/Harz, size 68. The helmet comes complete with a blue/grey leather construction, dual "Y" pattern chin harness with an age and usage darkened natural chamois leather reverse. The left side of the chin harness has a mid-war, magnetic gripper buckle with a small leather pull tab. The right side of the chin harness has a transverse piece of leather stitched to the end creating a "T", so the strap would not slip out of the buckle. The "T" end of the strap has a male snap with a corresponding female snap receiver on a sliding leather loop, designed for fit adjustment. The chin harness is fully intact and the leather is still quite supple. Helmet comes with its original, field made, printed, splinter pattern camouflage, paratrooper’s helmet cover. Two piece construction cover of medium weight cotton. Single piece side panel with vertical machine stitched seam to reverse center, and oval crown panel. Cover has a horizontal foliage band, roughly, 15mm wide, running around about the middle of the side panel. Foliage band is also present to the cover. Cover is completed with all six original attachment clips. Shows the expected period use and wear but overall nice condition. The "Collector's Guild is perfectly aware that this helmet cover is NOT a factory made cover. It is presented as a field-made cover with excellent provenance which close examination suggests is contemporary with the helmet, and it is priced accordingly."
Note; This particular helmet was captured by Roman Krsminski, a member of the 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade at Monte Casino. (Mr Krsminski won the Virtuti Militari at Monte Casino). The photos, above, of Mr Krsminski in uniform were ones that were published in a book about the second armoured division in italy -published in Rome in 1946. The medals are not included with the sale, but will remain with the family. We are now selling the helmet on behalf of the Family".

.



Nice embellished story, but as Steve indicated, the decal is indeed in need of closer scrutiny. Below is a close-up of the decal. It is about as original as a $3 dollar bill. This is one of the dangers of attempting to put together a historical record using faulty data. Put garbage in, get garbage out!

[SMP]

.



Nice embellished story, but as Steve indicated, the decal is indeed in need of closer scrutiny. Below is a close-up of the decal. It is about as original as a $3 dollar bill. This is one of the dangers of attempting to put together a historical record using faulty data. Put garbage in, get garbage out!

No, I was just wondering if it had been added .

[WalterB]

No, I was just wondering if it had been added .

Ah, I see. Do you like the decal? I have compared it to my database of ET style decals and I find it different in material ways. It is not a decal I would expect to see in an FJ shell. Perhaps a specialist in LW decals can participate here?

[SMP]

Ah, I see. Do you like the decal? I have compared it to my database of ET style decals and I find it different in material ways. It is not a decal I would expect to see in an FJ shell. Perhaps a specialist in LW decals can participate here?

I always have concerns when I see a CKL helmet with a decal. So many ND CKL lids have had them applied post-war. I am struggling with this one. WRT the decal itself, it looks very much like a genuine ET one to me , albeit with just a couple of minor concerns. I would love to hear what Francis thinks !

[SMP]

This concerns me ( and, yes Francis I agree with you ! )

[WalterB]

This concerns me ( and, yes Francis I agree with you ! )

Indeed! For purposes of comparison with one-looker authentic ET LW decals. One of the decals includes the "dot" variant. But examining the area you pointed out, there are significant discrepancies with the authentic decals below.