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**Jürg** · 11-11-2003, 07:05 AM

Fsch Pi

Hi Jim
The Fallschirm-Pionier-Bataillon was formed in 1940 and attached to the 7. Flieger-Division which took part in the Crete operation. In May 1943 it was renamed Fallschirm-Pionier-Bataillon 1 with 4 companies and attached to the 1. Fallschirmjäger-Division. In April 1945, the 2nd company was used to form Fallschirm-Pionier-Bataillon 10. Hope this helps for now.

Jürg

**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2003, 08:46 AM

Perhaps we should chat about this one. How does everyone feel about the color of the ink used on the unit stamp, the spacing of the last name, the condition of the paper and the late date? Will look at a bunch of mine and get back.

Willi

**jimuk** · 11-11-2003, 09:27 AM

Hi Willi-
You are getting me worried!

What does everybody think? I am by far no expert on paper items, but if this is a copy it is a damn good one!! Or so it seems to me....

JimUK

**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2003, 09:56 AM

Being worried today is necessary Jim. Was only pointing out some "concerns". I just looked at 7 Kreta documents from groupings I have. Here is what I see as a pattern: only 1 of my 7 has the last name NOT spaced out, only 1 of my 7 (a different one) has the unit listed, none of my 7 have "Gef. Stand" written in that block...they ALL have "O.U.", NONE of the 7 go into 1944 and NONE use that color of ink on the unit stamp. I realize that 7 is not a scientific study, so would like to hear from others. I suspect Eric has some listed in his book, and that there are others in other books. Will do some more checking. The paper looks good. Many bad documents have recently been typed on original blank documents. Not being absolute here, just pointing out "concerns".

Willi

PS: Just looked at 3 in Eric's book: all 3 have "O.U.", 2 have units, 1 has last name not spaced out.

Saw another in the Kurz book that is a "Zweiteschrift" or "second copy": it does have "Gef. Stand", unit and last name not spaced.

**Jürg** · 11-11-2003, 10:37 AM

here is mine

just to compare here is mine out of my little LL Sturm-Rgt group I have:

**Chris** · 11-11-2003, 11:15 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Schumacher document at all, it's just a late award issue for some reason. It's very similar in execution to the Ehlers document in the Kurtz book. I think a few eligible recipients initially fell through the cracks, either by being transferred out of the FJ, or out of the LW altogether, or by being discharged to civilian life on medical grounds. In the case of the Ehlers document, its a duplicate issued at the recipient's request (Zweitschrift). I'm pretty sure the unit indicated on the Schumacher document, as it is on Ehlers' document, is the unit he was in when he qualified for the award. I'd buy it in a New York minute, I think it's cool that's it's issued so late.

**CSP** · 11-17-2003, 06:58 PM

The article on the Association web page at http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/camp...tles/kreta.htm may help you.

**jimuk** · 01-22-2004, 10:14 AM

Hi everyone-
I have returned to this old thread as I have a few developments I would like to share. I bought this Kreta award document a while ago (see previous posts). About a week after I bought it, the same seller posted a complete group to a Heinz Schumacher that comprised the following:
1. Verleihungsurkunde zum EK II
2. Verleihungsurkunde zum EK I
3. Besitzzeugnis fuer das Verwundetenabzeichen in Silber
4. Verleihungsurkunde fuer das Aermelband " Kreta ",
5. 3 ( !!! ) Verleihungsurkunden zum Sonderabzeichen
6. Verleihungsurkunde fuer das Deutsche Kreuz in Gold

When I saw this group, I got alarmed as the two Kreta award documents, the one in the group and the one I had just bought, were identical apart from the first names: mine was to Reinhard and the one with the group was to Heinz. The first thing that popped to mind was that this could have been an outright copy. However, having talked to a few people (thanks Eric, Willi), it more likely seemed that this was also an original but a "double" award. I then proceeded to contact the dealer. To his credit he managed to trace the guy he had bought it from, who in turn contacted the family from which he had originally bought the group. I was thus told, that there was no brother Reinhard, nor that ths was Heinz's middle name (two possibilities to the case), but that it was an issuing mistake. This explanation puts everything right into place (the exact same style of type, etc).

Now my dillema: do I return this document since it was issued incorrectly to the named recipient, or do I keep the document to a highly awarded Fallischjager even though his name is mispelt and there is a correct one in existence? Over to you gentlemen, your thoughts please, best regards

JimUK

**jimuk** · 01-22-2004, 10:18 AM

Sorry!!!! Is this better?

Hi everyone-
I have returned to this old thread as I have a few developments I would like to share. I bought this Kreta award document a while ago (see previous posts). About a week after I bought it, the same seller posted a complete group to a Heinz Schumacher that comprised the following:
1. Verleihungsurkunde zum EK II
2. Verleihungsurkunde zum EK I
3. Besitzzeugnis fuer das Verwundetenabzeichen in Silber
4. Verleihungsurkunde fuer das Aermelband " Kreta ",
5. 3 ( !!! ) Verleihungsurkunden zum Sonderabzeichen
6. Verleihungsurkunde fuer das Deutsche Kreuz in Gold

When I saw this group, I got alarmed as the two Kreta award documents, the one in the group and the one I had just bought, were identical apart from the first names: mine was to Reinhard and the one with the group was to Heinz. The first thing that popped to mind was that this could have been an outright copy. However, having talked to a few people (thanks Eric, Willi), it more likely seemed that this was also an original but a "double" award. I then proceeded to contact the dealer. To his credit he managed to trace the guy he had bought it from, who in turn contacted the family from which he had originally bought the group. I was thus told, that there was no brother Reinhard, nor that ths was Heinz's middle name (two possibilities to the case), but that it was an issuing mistake. This explanation puts everything right into place (the exact same style of type, etc).

Now my dillema: do I return this document since it was issued incorrectly to the named recipient, or do I keep the document to a highly awarded Fallischjager even though his name is mispelt and there is a correct one in existence? Over to you gentlemen, your thoughts please, best regards

JimUK

**Willi Z.** · 01-22-2004, 09:02 PM

Jim, I am being honest here, and it is still only my opinion, but I still do not feel very positive about your first document. I still have my reservations and have not given it the

. The "concerns" I mentioned earlier still hold true to me. And, your new information makes me even more suspicious. Did you talk to anyone other than the dealer on this? Did you talk to the guy who bought it from the family, or the family? Or is it all heresay as explained to you by the dealer? You can PM the dealer's name if you like.

Does anyone feel good about 2 Kretas to the same guy but with an incorrect first name on one? That doesn't sound rational to me. Nor does it sound very "German" to me to not have pulled the one with the wrong name, while issuing a second one...both of which went to him.

Jim, have you seen what these other documents looked like? Some are rather rare. Will do some research on Heinz Schumacher regarding his German Cross in Gold. Are you saying that Schumacher also has 3 tank destruct badges documents?

Willi

**Chris** · 01-23-2004, 09:22 PM

Again, I don't see any problem with that Kreta document. A naming error is not uncommon. Willi, you bought one of my smaller groups a couple years ago, a set of four to an FJR3 troop named Nierfeld as I recall, which also included a Kreta cufftitle. On one of the four documents, I forget which, his LAST name was misspelled "Mierfeld." It wasn't a bad sign on that document and I don't think it's a bad sign on this one. Given the hundreds of thousands of award documents of all types produced, I think clerical errors probably happened frequently. I haven't seen any of the other documents, but I think the Kreta cuff document which started this thread is fine.

**Willi Z.** · 01-23-2004, 09:33 PM

I most certainly agree with minor typos Chris. I just don't get a good feeling about two Kretas to the same guy with two completely different first names. That plus my gut feeling on that document.... I could be completely wrong, and overly suspicious.

Can't find the FJ as a DKiG winner. Anyone else have any luck? Been also getting emails and PMs about the dealer who had everything being offered.

Willi

**Eric Queen** · 01-24-2004, 12:22 AM

I agree with Chris on this one. The document in question looks perfectly fine to me. I looked at all of the other docments, and there is no doubt in my mind that they are 100% correct ( a very nice, rare set with the 3 tank strip docs ). Both Kretaband docs were identical ( executed, IMO, on the same typewriter ). Beyond my opinion of the documents themselves, I find it a bit hard to believe that Weitze ( and sure, he, like all dealers ( knowingly or unknowingly ) sells fakes on occasion ) would put a fake document on this site, then a week later put on another one same exact unit, same exact date, same last name. Doesn't really make sence. Also not sure they would have gotten past Kay. He is one of the more knowledgable people in the document game.

Just my 2 cents.

EQ

**jimuk** · 01-24-2004, 06:42 AM

Hi there-
I would like to thank everyone for their comments. Even though I am still in two minds about returning the document, this thread has shown me that scrutinising everything is very essential in this hobby.
I still keep wondering how common clerical mistakes were when coming to award documents? Did people subsequently correct them, or did most let them be? Anyways, thank you all for your help, best regards

JimUK

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