FJ ID Disc

[Matt L]

Hi Guys,

Here's an image of my Fallschirmjaeger Erkennungsmarke- I really like seeing images of pieces in others' collections, so I thought I'd put up mine for all to see.

Does anyone know if there's a unit history of Fsch.Rgt. 5 around anywhere?

Matt

[JYN]

Matt,

I don't know an unit history about this regiment. He was sent in Tunisia by November 1942. He fought and lost a lot of men overthere. Then he was reconstituded during March 1944. On 15th June 1944, Major K.-H. BECKER (ex commander of the III./FJR 5) took the command of the FJR 5. A lot of men from the III./FJR 1 who fought in Italia went to this Regiment and fought with BECKER in Normandy. They fought hard by St-Lo - Berigny sector. BECKER was called at this time 'Die Lowe vom Berigny'.
Jean-Yves Nasse

[Adrian Stevenson]

FJ Dog tag?

Hi Matt, I was interested in the scan that you posted of the dog tag. I was always under the impression that FJ Erkennungsmarke did not feature unit designations on them, like conventional Heer/ Waffen SS tags?
According to Robert Kurtz's book "German Paratroopers" page 154 (which features many items fro Willi's collection) they were only stamped with the mans Roll or Stamm number and a five or six digit number known as the MOB number. This was done as a security measure on all Luftwaffe airmens dog tags. This number could identify a unit down to Kompanie level. Other letters did feature such as blood group and numbers for the mans gas mask size.
Can any one add any more?
Your tag certainly looks old and had me wondering why it was unit marked?
Cheers, Ade.

[J Melvin]

Original Discs

Ade, a stash of original, unissued discs was actually found in Eastern Europe last year or the year before. So, be on the watch when buying discs. Especially rare ones. These are being used by reenactors for their impressions. Then, they may end up in the collector market. Bear in mind that reenactors tend to congregate towards the "celebrity" units. So, I'd steer clear of any from those divisions without it coming off the vets neck.

[Matt L]

Thanks for the information Jean-Yves, even little bits are interesting.

I had thought that too Ade, about the FJ tags being like other Luftwaffe tags- only numeric. However, over the last couple of years, since I started looking, I've seen several FJ tags with specified units- and none being the 'celebrity' units that are to be avoided (as Jack suggests, and I agree). So far, I've seen this, another standard FJ unit, and a FJ Sturmgeschuetz, and an Artillerie unit, all of which, based on condition, etc., appear to be authentic. Mine has some minor corrosion on the back- over the impressions of the stamping, suggesting it is at least a period piece.

[JYN]

FJ tags with specified units are known. By 1942-43, the codes of the FJR 5 were from 214 008 up to 214 018 and by 1944 were from 217 398 up to 217 419. Why we have in your case the unit specified on the tag. Early in war, late in the war ? Is this tag is coming from East ? We have first to know where this is coming from ?
Jean-Yves

[Matt L]

I bought the tag about a year and-a-half ago from Peter v. Lukacs in Stockholm- as for where he acquired it, I don't know. I had a guy I know who specializes in SS tags look at it, and he thought it was good. He's also dealt with Peter and had good things to say about him. I notice that Peter is a member here, but hasn't posted in a while...

[Willi Z.]

There is alot of disagreement on the matter, amoung advanced FJ collectors and historians, of whether all FJ Erkennugsmarken should use the MOB Nummern system, or whether some used unit designations. FJs were flying personnel and flying personnel used the MOB Nummerm system is what most would say. We do know that some FJ Erkennungsmarken which have been in collections for many years do have units on them. I have one marked to a Fallschirm Pionier unit which was stationed in a town in Italy and the tag was found in a gas mask can in a flea market in that same town. So, it is possible that it is correct.

But, recently 100's of FJ tags bearing interesting units (and FJR5 is an interesting unit) have been coming out of the east. FJR5 never fought in the east. They found 1000's of blank Erkennugsmarken in Russia in the last few years....and now all of a sudden you find those of rare FJ units and plently of Waffen SS units being offered for sale. Where are all the basic ones? The trail for many of these bad tags does lead to Sweden...... I wouldn't touch them at all.........most including the pictured one don't look right, Again a matter of forensics. Badly aged tags with cleanly punched letters....... no convincing age (when you consider that the dealers claim these are ground dug) to the lettering when you look at them under 10x magnification.

On the FJR5 unit history, they were formed in late 1942 from members of the Sturmregiment. Most of them were redesignated as the Jäger Regiment Hermann Goering in early 1943 in Tunisia. Few made it out of Africa. As JY mentioned, FJR5 was reformed in 6/44 as part of the 3rd FJD which fought in the west till May of '45.

Willi Zahn

[Angel Farré]

I don't know to much about dog tags as the only ones which ended in my collectin are part of bigger groups of papers, medals and other pieces from vets, but I deal several times with Peter and never have problems always I received what promised and no problem about asking him several times about a piece and the sending of pictures or aditional info. I only can say that till now I thought that FJ and flying personal wore tags with codes instead the normal ones used by the WH and the Waffen SS so I wonder why a "faker" must do this it can only fool beginners and this usually don't spend to much money with this type of pieces. Also dogtags are not pieces that someone looks to much as its prices are usually low comparing to other common pieces so is easy to forget a deep research in a piece of $10,20 or 30. This is another big black hole in the collector world, some people says that FJ also used this type of tags meanwhile other say not, surely never reach the solution, but is a good point of discussion.

Cheers

Angel

[Matt L]

Indeed Angel, you are quite right- this has become an interesting topic of discussion. I had no idea there would be anything to discuss- I just though people might like to see the tag!

I knew that FJ Erkennugsmarken used the MOB Nummern system, however I assumed that things simply changed over time.

I appreciate your evaluation too Willi. I did in fact examine it 'forensically' when I first got it, and should say that the scan doesn't show a lot of important details- first the stamping is far from perfect- nor is it crude either. Also, there is corrosion inside a few of the stampings, just as I mentioned it is over the raised portions on the reverse. It really doesn't appear to be an old, blank tag with recent stampings.

You know, I've been wondering about the sudden explosion of HG tags avaliable all over- now THIS strikes me as a likely set of reproductions

It was never suggested that this tag came from the east- which, of course, you're quite right would be a reason to doubt its authenticty- or that it had been ground-dug. Its condition is such that I very much doubt it was. Peter says he acquires material from all over Europe.

Matt

[Willi Z.]

For the last 2 years, there have been a number of unique FJ and Waffen SS Erkennungsmarken being offered on ebay. I noted that they came from a dealer in Sweden. Not trying to point any fingers, just trying to relate an observation of mine. And, I really have no idea who the dealer is.....really means nothing to me....I judge a dealer by what they sell. These never sold for anything near the value of ones known to be original. In regards to the FJ ones, some had units which did not make sense, but most where of the "sexy" units as we call them. Yet when I have looked up MOB Nummern for coded ones, they normaly came back to "boring" units; reserve units, replacement, etc. In fact, I just saw one for a transportation unit of the 7th Flieger Division, not very exciting but real. Another example of where the recent flood of suspicious items from the east has hurt the hobby. Now unit marked ones outnumber MOB numbered ones..........that in itself says it all. Since only an extremely small number of people have access to the codes and what units they represent keeps that information out of the hands of the guys who stamp them. And, it is very easy to stamp them....and age them........ I see reenactors buy original blank ones and get them stamped. Really tough to tell when someone then uses acid or submerses them in salt water. Then the key is to look at the edges of the lettering......in the same way you can look at bad Waffenampt stamps (or SS markings) on firearms. Recent ones are just too crisp and have hard edges. A tough area......

WZ

[Matt L]

Willi- your observation that the named unit tags outnumber the MOB numbered ones now is an interesting one- I too have seen only a very very few MOB numbered tags around lately, and had thought that this meant it was Luftwaffe aircrew and only early FJ units who wore these tags... it's very interesting to learn that this may not have been the case. It does indeed suggest that a lot of the named unit tags around today aren't real.

This is quite disturbing because it means the only way to be absolutely sure of any new acquisitions is to either find it yourself or to know the source extremely well.

It seems to me that it would not be possible to recognize lettering types, or abbreviations used because these would likely have changed many times over the course of the war- in fact, I don't think I've seen two tags with the same lettering.

Of course, it is still difficult to understand why, as Angel suggested, fakers would make fantasy tags when it's just as easy to make accurate reproductions. Hell, it's far, far easier to stamp a series of numbers than to write unit names- especially when it could potentially be proven that FJ tags were numbers only.

[moranimal]

FJ Erkennungsmarke

From the picture, it would seem that the person was from the II Battalion of the 5th FJ Regiment. (Roman numerals were used for battalions and arabic numbers for company designations.) Concerning Luftwaffe units, we must remember that a number of FJ personnel transferred to the LW Field Divisions upon their creation in 1942-43. (As I remember, the LW Field Divisions had a similar style of marking, but that's strictly from memory at this point.) A new Erkennungsmarke would not have been issued with this transfer, unless lost. Now, in late 1944 and early 1945, a lot of Kriegsmarine and LW ground crew personnel were transferred to SS and Wehrmacht units as replacements, and would have retained their original Erkennungsmarke, such as a Kriegsmarine found in the Bulge.

What all this means is that an Erkennungsmarke for a specific unit can be found just about anywhere. You would need to more about the history of the individual to make such a determination as to whether the Erkennungsmarke is out of place or not.

Cheers,

[J Melvin]

FD Disc



Here's a fairly rare disc. From the tank destroyer battalion of the 18.Feld Division (Lw). This division saw its first action in August, 1944. Was nearly destroyed in September, 1944. Reconstituted as 18.Volksgrenadier Div. and was instrumental in the capture of St. Vith during the Battle of the Bulge.

[moranimal]

Interesting Research

Concerning Matt's original posting, the 5th FJR was indeed destroyed in North Africa in May 1943. However, II/5 FJR was reconstituted as part of the 2nd FJD in October 1943 in the south of Russia. It was virtually annihilated at Kirovograd in February 1944, but the staff survived and in June 1944 became the staff of the 16th FJR. The new 5th FJR was formed from the III/1 FJR in March of 1944.

Thus, it would indeed seem credulous then that II/5 FJR was in Russia, and that such an Erkennungsmarke would have come from the east. Given that personnel from the unit were found in North Africa with Ramcke, with the 2nd FJD in the south of Russia, and finally in the west with the 3rd FJD, Erkennungsmarke would have been all over Europe. (Staff personnel surviving Russia would have been found in the 16th FJR of the 6th FJD in the west as well!)

Now, the 18./Lw.Pz.Ab.K. 161 86 O Erkennungsmarke was probably from the motorized Panzerjager company of the AT battalion. It would have had three companies, one of towed AT, one towed AA, and one Sturmgeschutz. (I chose the towed AT only because of the "Pz" and the "K"; without the "K", I wouldn't have even attempted a guess!) I like this tag very much and find it very cool. Don't know why, but I do have a fondness for the LW Field Divisions.

All of the above information was taken from Nafziger's "German Order of Battle; Waffen SS and Other Units in World War II" as well as Tessin's "Verbande und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS 1939-45", bande 1-5 & 15-30.

Hope that's of interest.

Cheers,