'Juncker' Army Para Badge

[Prosper Keating]

When Chris Shepherd posted as follows:

exbooty
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Estonia
Posts: 3

I have had very good dealings with Jamie..he struck me as a collector and not a dealer who feels for the guys he is sending to. I brought a APB from him some time ago ( along with other items) so I could be accussed of deluding myself. However I invite PK to send me his email address and I will send a scan of the said piece so long as he sticks with reasons. I have to admit PK has great credentials ....but Jamie Cross I also trust.

Regards Chris


I suggested that he post these images here to get feedback and opinions from collectors with a particular interest in German airborne stuff. He has asked me to post them for him.

Prosper Keating

[Prosper Keating]

The Guarantee of Authenticity

Here's the guarantee of authenticity. I'm posting this so that you all get a better idea of the colours because the pictures of the APB are quite clear. Those of you who are interested, at any rate.



I remember that that other wellknown British dealer Adrian Forman used to issue certificates too. He also, if memory serves me correctly, attached seals of authenticity to some of the stuff he sold…including Knights' Crosses.

Anyway, I will refrain from commenting here on this Army Parachutists Badge but perhaps some of you could give Chris some opinions. Eric's away at the moment but there are a few equally serious people here. There are a few clowns too, but we can discount their 'input'. Yippee-aiee-aaay!

Prosper Keating

[Warren O]

Chris,
I think your badge is good the die charecteristics between the marked and unmarked badges are exactly the same. My only problem is I have not held these badges in my hands to compare so with this in mind I will not buy one until I can study these items in hand.
Its been said that the marked badges could be cast from originals which I believe is incorrect, even with modern dental materials a new mold would have to be made for nearly every badge produced because the material cannot with stand multiple uses with molten metal. I can mention other flaws with casting but I believe I've made my point.
Warren

[Philippe]

Hi,

Proofs are in wartime photographs... I was reading again the article on the APB, and read this :
"Note the angle of the diving eagle. No badges like this appear in any wartime photographs".
Question for readers of this thread is : Did someone have original wartime photographs showing exactly the same angle of the diving eagle (no period retouched pictures) ?

I'll post (within a day I hope) clear and sharp wartime pictures, with close-up of the APB, with the specific angle, stricly the same angle like original documented badges seen by Eric Queen.

-Generalleutnant Richard Heidrich
-Major Rudolf Witzig
-Oberfeldwebel Weskop (11./FJR 3)

Then I'll post a direct comparaison with know orginals.

Regards to all

Philippe
(majorplm)

[Tim Calvert]

This Juncker hallmark appears to be different than the norm. How many different Juncker hallmarks are accepted??

[Eric Queen]

We have gone around and around about this a number of times, and I think most people who have read the previous threads on this subject know where I stand. I will say just breifly though, that of all the 100% unquestionable original badges in aluminum that I saw in the hands of their original owners ( or in the collections of those few who received them directly from the original owner ) none, not one, had this type of finish nor this "?" shaped catch imbeded in the wreath. ALL the originals I have seen have a "C" form catch sodered to the wreath.

I have an orginal coming directly from the original owners family this week. I will post it next week when I return from Japan.

EQ

[Philippe]

Hi,

Major Rudolf Witzig, pictured in june 1943, wearing his 1st pattern aluminium APB



Close-up of his badge, please note the angle of the diving eagle, the right end of the upper wing inside the wreath.



The design of the PAB was registered, 1st, 2nd (800 silver & alu) and third pattern (zinc) use globaly the same design, minor differences (1st and 2nd wreath - extended talon or not, beard under the eagle's beak etc.) are fruits of technical improvments.

I will post others pics showing second pattern.

Regards,

Philippe
(majorplm@bigfoot.com)

[Peter v L]

Here are pictures off a recently picked upp original 1´st type Heer Para badge. Reciver is known, and also his other medals as well as soldbuch is in the group.

Peter v L

[mmiller]

Is that a beard?

Hello Peter,

I am studying your First Pattern Para Badge. It looks as though the eagle has a beard, if I am seeing things correctly.

However, I am under the impression that the First Pattern Badge's eagle had no beard. At least, this is what is depicted in Eric and Prosper's article.

Confused,
Mark

[Peter v L]

Hi Mark

Yes, it has a beard, but here is what Eric Q said about that;

"the "beard" beneath the Wehrmachtadlers beak has not been tooled out ( which resembles the second pattern badge ) This really wouldn't bother me at all though. It could have just slipped through the cracks (quality inspectors )or it could have been part of an experimental batch designed to save time ( i.e. not tool this area )"

You have to look at the badge in whole, not just to one small feature!

Peter v L

[mmiller]

Hi Peter,

I agree with you that we must look at the badge as a whole. One of the key characteristics of this First Pattern however, as is depicted and written in 'The Article', was the lack of a beard.

If we have an exception to that rule, then it is not the rule anymore. That is my only point. And with this badge, especially, I thought we had adopted the 'no tolerance' policy.

That being said, the finish, hinge and pin, and the hallmark...of your badge... certainly look convincing.

Regards,
Mark

[Prosper Keating]

I said that I wouldn't comment on Chris Sheppard's badge but this is about Peter's 1st pattern APB and Mark Miller's valid point about the article - or "The Article" - and the beard thing. I hadn't seen a 1st pattern with a 'beard' until Peter showed this one. But I have seen a 1st pattern which bears evidence of an attempt to rework the die around the area of the diving eagle's talons to beef them up a bit as it was one of the notorious weak spots of the design of the 1st pattern. The result is pretty ugly, which is arguably why Juncker made new dies for the diving eagle. So seeing this 'beard' doesn't surprise me. At one point, Juncker were clearly experimenting with ways of trying to rectify the various weak points prone to breakage during manufacture and when the badge was worn. The wehrmacht eagle's head was a weak spot. So were the talons. And so was the hook. The hook of Peter's example is broken in exactly the sale place and manner as mine.

I don't think Eric or I have ever claimed that the article was written in stone, as 'gospel'. When we were writing it, the Ludwig APB turned up, complete with its C E Juncker hallmark. This hallmark, by the way, is identical to that found on the 1st pattern aluminium APBs. So now we have seen a bearded 1st pattern APB. It's evidently original so it's eligible for inclusion in the planned revision of the article, as is the 1st pattern APB with the strengthened talons.

Prosper Keating

[Luftm40]

Hi, first off. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't use the dealer in question, and don't have any kind of stake in the badge being real or fake. I am, however, confused about some of the logic being used to cry foul with this piece, and with maker maked 2nd pattern badges in general. If I remember the article correctly, the assertion that 2nd pattern badges are never marked comes from observing a very small number of badges still in the hands of the original recipients. In fact I think the sample was 30 original recipients, 25% of whom had their original 2nd pattern badges, 100% of these badges being maker marked. That equates to (rounding up) 9 badges. Now, even given a small production run, 9 badges seems statistically insignificant to me. As I further recall, the article goes on to state that there was at least one exception to the "rule", ie a marked 2nd pattern that the authors considered original. Then there is Jody's marked 2nd pattern badge, which seems to have excellent provenance. Now, based on Peter's input (which I also believe to be an original badge), we are conceding other exceptions to the various "rules" governing the APB as stated in the article. Perhaps I have misread something, but I think my logic teacher would have given me a D for this project. Maybe this badge needs to be studied a bit more?

[Prosper Keating]

Andy raises good points and asks valid questions. The issue of "sampling" - the number of badges examined that were still in the possession of recipients, their families or collectors who'd acquired them directly from recipients or their families - was discussed quite exhaustively in earlier threads not long after the article came out.

I think that Andy seems to be one of the handful of people who still misunderstands what was stated in the article with regard to the authenticity of Juncker-marked 2nd pattern aluminium Army Para Badges. I shan't quote the relevant passages here because you can go and read the article if necessary but I will say that we did NOT say that hallmarked 2nd pattern ally APBs were all fakes. We just warned buyers to be more careful than usual.

Apropos this 'beard' thing: so the area between the beak of Peter's 1st pattern aluminium APB's wehrmachtadler and the wing hasn't been filed out. So what? That makes the badge a fake? Gentlemen: these badges were all subject to a high degree of hand-finishing. No two are identical in the literal sense of the word.

I recently saw a mint 1st pattern aluminium APB where the diving eagle's talons bore witness to attempts to rework the die to strengthen this area of the badge, one of the notoriously weak points, prone to breakage during and after manufacture. Other such weak points, by the way, included the wehrmachtadler's head and the hook.

This evident reworking of the diving eagle die produced quite ugly results, resembling some kind of tumorous growth, which would explain why this badge is stone mint: C E Juncker never would have allowed it into circulation. It also explains why a new die was then made for the diving eagle, giving rise to the 2nd pattern APB. So when I see Peter's badge, the 'beard' really isn't surprising. It's logical. This badge probably passed through the hands of the man with the needle files towards the end of the 1st pattern's short production period.

Put another way: it could, like its sibling with the tumour on its talons, be described as a transitional badge, marking the passage from 1st to 2nd pattern.

Again, it's worth reminding those who seize upon these differences as proof that the APB purchased for £1000 by Chris Sheppard COULD therefore be original that the differences in question are due to hand-finishing, not different dies or, I suspect in the case of Chris's badge, to centrifugal moulding.

These badges would be included in any revision of our article. We changed the article in order to include the Ludwig badge, the only known 2nd pattern aluminium APB with a Juncker hallmark. If you study the Ludwig badge's hallmark, you will see that it is the same as the hallmarks found on 1st pattern aluminium APBs. One of Peter's scans shows it very clearly.

As to hypotheses to the effect that Juncker produced batches of APBs between January 1 1939 and June 1 1943, neither I nor Eric Queen have ever said that this is impossible. Nor have we ever said that it is impossible that another firm produced batches of APBs during the same period, for sale to former FIK/FIB members requiring replacements or, as some have suggested, issue to Brandenburg and Waffen-SS parachutists.

Let's deal with these issues for the benefit of those who have not followed this festering sore of a debate since the publication of our article elsewhere on this site. Keep a phrase in your mind: "it's POSSIBLE but is it really PROBABLE?"

If Juncker produced some APBs after the badge was abolished and before it was reinstated, then why have all recipients Eric Queen and I have spoken with over the years - independently, Eric being a student of this subject while I got to know them because I hold Bundeswehr para wings - said that they wore their army badges with pride throughout, often repairing them several times because they couldn't get replacements or wearing doubles?

The same question applies to the claim of the 'open-minders' and several dealers selling APBs on a suspiciously regular basis that another firm could have made APBs during the period of abolition. Some of the badges they hold up as 'evidence' of this would have had even the midest-mannered LDO inspector frothing at the mouth. I mean…just look at the asymetrical wehrmacht eagle on Mr Sheppard's APB! It just doesn't follow the external lines of the approved design. It's malformed. And if you need me to tell you why, then you really need to study your subject a bit more before you spend money on 3rd Reich militaria.

The APB was reintroduced in June 1943 by OKW principally for para-trained members of the Brandenburg Division. Up to that point, Brandenburgers received the Luftwaffe badge as did other Army soldiers. Based on available photographic and documentary evidence, most members of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500, formed in November 1943, seem to have received the Luftwaffe Para Badge but I know of one example, an SS-Hauptsturmführer, whose soldbuch is marked "Fallschirmschützenabzeichen des Heeres". The date , August 1944, has been crossed out and amended to December 1944. The parachute schools, by the way, were all run by the airforce, like the British system. There was no difference in the courses for army, W-SS and airforce parachutists.

These 1943 APBs were struck in feinzink on the same dies used by Juncker to produce the 2nd pattern aluminium and silver APBs before the war. The finish, as you might expect with zinc badges, was inferior but apart from that, these badges are well-struck and fitted with the classic Juncker hinge and pin assembly used for many of their zinc-based badges of the mid-war period. Check the pictures in the article. So that, in my view, scuppers all these hypotheses that Juncker had several sets of dies, that Michael Maus und Sohn of Goofballstadt ran up APBs of a quality range from barely acceptable to criminally tacky behind the LDO's back and so on…and on…and on.

Look at prewar and wartime photos taken in the field or in studios where the badges are clearly shown. Here's a point for consideration in relation to Chris Sheppard's badge: why doesn't the tip of the rear, uppermost wing of the diving eagle reach to the central leaves of the wreath? And why is the eagle at the wrong angle? Its angle between the upper wing and the swastika 'block' is more like that of the 1st pattern APB than the 2nd pattern where there was so little angle that the two edges are almost parallel. Compare Mr Sheppard's APB to those in period photographs. More to the point, produce a period photograph - an un-retouched, 'virgin' image - showing a badge like Mr Sheppard's one being worn by an ex-FIK/FIB man or a Brandenburger.

I suppose we should post some nice wartime photos now. But I'll leave that to someone else cos I've gone on long enough.

Prosper Keating

[Luftm40]

I know I'm entering the fray late, but my point was that drawing any kind of conclusion from the appearance of 9 badges isn't really valid, even if it's just a warning to "be extra careful". Perhaps the 9 badges you looked at are the real exceptions to the rule, and the majority of original 2nd pattern badges WERE marked?...who knows. Even with the qualifying remarks, the implication in your article is clearly that unmarked APBs outnumber marked ones. How can we truly say that based on 9 badges? Should the presence of a maker mark even be mentioned in the context of spotting a fake, based on such a small sampling? Maybe, maybe not, we need to study it more IMO. Now, I'm not driving toward one of those "prove it is fake" arguments, but I am always concerned when new "rules" for collectors are created. They invariably become oversimplified and misconstrued. kind of like the RK swastika height thing. Collectors look for easy rules that can be applied across the board, and for the most part they don't exist. I'm also not saying that the badge in question is real...I'd have to look at it more closely to decide for myself