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    #1

    Rank: Unteroffizier or Oberjäger?

    Gents,

    Interesting point that was raised on e-stand regarding the rank of Oberjäger being an Unteroffizier in the Fallschirm arm. So really Uffz. should not be used, but is there another reason?

    I have the Soldbuch to a good friend and Unteroffizier with Pi.Zug/Fj.Rgt. 3 and when I asked him why his rank was Uffz. and not Obj. he told me it was because he was a Pioniere and not a Fallschirmjäger as such!!!

    Has anyone else heard of this...I have heard also that only members of the Fj.Rgt. could have such a rank and supporting troops Sanitäter, Kraftfährer, Panzerjäger etc. were traditionally Uffz!!!!

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Cheers, Ian
    Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

    Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1
    Tags: None
    #2
    I am not sure if there were any hard and fast rules. In airborne units, all para-trained personnel are paratroopers first and specialists second. The German airborne of WW2 shared this general perception.

    In theory, it is perfectly correct to refer to a specialist on an award document by his appropriate rank. I have a group to an NCO in Fallschirm-Artillerie-Rgt 1 in which he is Kanonier on his 1940 jump badge document but Oberjäger on other documents.

    I think that it really depended upon the official filling out a particular document. I have seen documents with all sorts of rank permutations, including one to a 'Fallschirm-Oberfeldwebel'. In fact, this is perfectly correct. One had 'Fallschirmpioniere' so why not a Fallschirm-Oberfeldwebel?

    In the end, I suspect that if the official filling out a document were airborne himself - that is to say para-trained - he would have rejected all these different rank permutations in favour of para ranks from Jäger upwards because paras perceive all paras as paras first and foremost.

    Er...hope this helps!

    PK

    Comment

      #3
      Thanks Prosper,

      Yes this guy was para trained, none para trained I would have expected to be Uffz., however I do have a later war Obj. who had not completed his jump course!

      Likewise I have Fallschirm-Feldwebel and Oberfeldwebel and again this seems to be a difference late war between "true" paras and those that were drafted as infantry.

      Maybe it depended as you say on the official filling in the document on the day...whether or not he knew or just couldn't be bother after he had made a mistake!

      Seeing as the rank Oberjäger was an honoury title for Fj. and Geb. troops so I would have thought they would have been a bit pissed off to be called an Unteroffizier!!!!

      Cheers, Ian
      Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

      Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

      Comment

        #4
        I agree with Prosper when he said there were no hard fast rules on this issue, and it was at the mercy of who filled out the documents. I really don't think it was of much concern to any FJ. On many documents you can encounter the wrong rank or even mispelled names. Some say Flieger, Jäger, Pionier, etc......I susoect the FJs, like most others, were more concerned about the award rather than the document.

        Willi
        Willi

        Preußens Gloria!

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        Sapere aude

        Comment

          #5
          however I do have a later war Obj. who had not completed his jump course!
          Ah yes...but if one wanted to get pedantic about it, "jäger" means rifleman as in elite rifleman, as opposed to a schütze, who is more of a common-or-garden infantryman. Fallschirmjäger means parachute-rifleman. Oberjäger equates to Rifleman 1st Class or Lance-Rifleman (really mixing it all up here!). It should really be Fallschirm-Oberjäger!

          Or...Fallschirm-Oberschütze? After all, the badge is for Fallschirmschützen. So where does that leave Fallschirmpioniere, or Fallschirmjäger for that matter? And what about the kanonier below? He didn't get a badge for Fallschirmkanoniere. Or even a badge for Fallschirmjäger.



          OK...I'll shut up now!

          PK

          Comment

            #6
            A document for a Fallschirmkanonier...not.

            PK
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #7
              Prosper:
              Fallschirm-Oberjäger?
              or maybe Ober-Fallschirmjäger?
              or Falloberschirmjäger?
              Oberschirm- Falljäger?
              whatever!
              as there are most varieties obeservable on document it doenst seem to have been that important to people..

              Gruß,
              KSM

              Comment

                #8
                Falljäger? A rifleman who has had too much to drink, yes?



                Glück Ab

                PK

                Comment

                  #9
                  Old discussion....
                  ...but some points of interest.

                  A Unteroffizier in the Fallschirmtruppe and the Jägertruppe is called Oberjäger, only if he was in the Infantry units of the Fallschirmtruppe.


                  All (!) Unteroffiziere of the Fallschirmjäger who were in Fallschirminfanterie were called Oberjäger. It doesn't matter whether he was para trained (wings) or not.


                  Best regards, Fronti

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Frontalschaden View Post
                    Old discussion....
                    ...but some points of interest.

                    A Unteroffizier in the Fallschirmtruppe and the Jägertruppe is called Oberjäger, only if he was in the Infantry units of the Fallschirmtruppe.


                    All (!) Unteroffiziere of the Fallschirmjäger who were in Fallschirminfanterie were called Oberjäger. It doesn't matter whether he was para trained (wings) or not.


                    Best regards, Fronti
                    Stimmt.

                    In the may 1940 Einsatzbericht of the 1. (springenden) Halbkompanie der Sanitäts-Kompanie 7 clearly the Unteroffizier is used i.s.o. Oberjäger;

                    In those of the Jäger-Kp's (2./, 3./, 4./Fjr1 etc) the Oberjäger is used and not Unteroffizier.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      I don't think so.

                      I have a number of award documents, Soldbuecher, and Wehrpassen to FJ infantry personnel using the term "Unteroffizier."

                      I believe that "Oberjaeger" was a Jaeger-unit-specific rank, while "Unteroffizier" was the official paygrade corresponding to that rank in non-Jaeger designated units, and I think there was considerable confusion about this at the time, as reflected in period documentation produced by clerks. There is a similar, if reduced, level of schizophrenia in period documents using the rank of "Wachtmeister" for FJ-Flak and FJ-Panzerjaeger senor NCO personnel, at least some of whom, Eric Queen's and my recent portrait book clearly shows, wore red Waffenfarbe as artillerists.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Chris View Post
                        I don't think so.

                        I have a number of award documents, Soldbuecher, and Wehrpassen to FJ infantry personnel using the term "Unteroffizier."

                        I believe that "Oberjaeger" was a Jaeger-unit-specific rank, while "Unteroffizier" was the official paygrade corresponding to that rank in non-Jaeger designated units, and I think there was considerable confusion about this at the time, as reflected in period documentation produced by clerks. There is a similar, if reduced, level of schizophrenia in period documents using the rank of "Wachtmeister" for FJ-Flak and FJ-Panzerjaeger senor NCO personnel, at least some of whom, Eric Queen's and my recent portrait book clearly shows, wore red Waffenfarbe as artillerists.
                        Hello

                        Thats right, Artillerie Feldwebel are Wachtmeister. It doesn't matter whether they are from normal (Heer) Artillerie or from Fallschirmartillerie.

                        All (!) Unteroffizier-grade soldiers of Jäger units and Fallschirmjäger units are Oberjäger.

                        These 2 points (above) is the official version. (per law)

                        What other units do (Fallschirmartillerie with grade Oberjäger, or something like that) is another point but against the rules.
                        (But these things still exists. I saw a Soldbuch from Fallschirmartillerie with grade Oberjäger)


                        Best regards, Fronti

                        Comment

                          #13
                          I'm afraid, that a look on some of my documents doesn't bring much more light into this discussion:

                          1) Soldbuch: "Fallschirm-Wachtmeister" and later on "Fallschirm-Oberwachtmeister". This guy served with Fallschirm-Artillerie from Crete to the end of the war.


                          2) Award-doc for DKiG: "Unteroffizier" and later on Feldwebel. This guy served with the Fallschirm-Pioniere from 1940 - 1945.

                          I also believe - as others wrote - that this didn't make a great difference for the concerned soldiers and depended on the guy who made the entries.

                          Regards,

                          Peter

                          Comment

                            #14
                            And I forgot:


                            3) Award-doc for DKiG: "Fahnenjunker-Unteroffizier" for a guy who also served with "Fallschirm-Pioniere" from 1941 - 1945.

                            Regards,

                            Peter

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Hello


                              Originally posted by peterm View Post
                              1) Soldbuch: "Fallschirm-Wachtmeister" and later on "Fallschirm-Oberwachtmeister". This guy served with Fallschirm-Artillerie from Crete to the end of the war.
                              Thats the right grade for an arty men !



                              Originally posted by peterm View Post
                              2) Award-doc for DKiG: "Unteroffizier" and later on Feldwebel. This guy served with the Fallschirm-Pioniere from 1940 - 1945.
                              Unteroffizier is the right grade for a Fallschirmpionier, because he is Fallschirmpionier and not a Fallschirmjäger ! (But the Fallschirmpioniere belonged to the Fallschirmjägers...)

                              Originally posted by peterm View Post
                              3) Award-doc for DKiG: "Fahnenjunker-Unteroffizier" for a guy who also served with "Fallschirm-Pioniere" from 1941 - 1945.
                              Right grade, too !

                              Originally posted by peterm View Post
                              I also believe - as others wrote - that this didn't make a great difference for the concerned soldiers and depended on the guy who made the entries.
                              This is my opinion, too !


                              Best regards, Fronti

                              Comment

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