Smock question

[SMP]

Hi ,
Can anyone tell me why some period photos appear to show the flare-pistol holster reversed (i.e. with the butt facing the opposite direction from standard ) on some smocks. Was this personal preference or manufacturer's quirk ?
Thanks,

Steve

[John Hodgin]

Hi Steve,

Are the smocks you are referring to converted models? I've seen some unusual holsters added to converted step in smocks. These holsters added to M-38 and 40 smocks were for P-08's, not flare pistols.

Hope collecting has been good.
Best,
John

[Willi Z.]

HI Steve and John,

This might be worthy of an objective discussion. I have always known that holster on the back to be for flare pistols. I have a photo of a FJ Pionier in Italy wearing a flare pistol in that holster...and every vet that I have spoken that recalls mentions a flare pistol and not a standard P08 type.

Though I must admit, I have never tried to put either into the holster..

The logic of it being for a pistol sounds good.....after Crete this holster was added as a lesson learned.....but, for a flare pistol or a pistol?? I do have a copy of a 1944 US Army Quartermaster Corps evaluation of a 10-43 dated splinter smock. Will check to see what they called it. And, I have been searching, with negative results, for the Luftwaffe orders detailing the conversion process for a step-in smock.

Just when we think we are sure of something.....

Willi

[Willi Z.]

John,

What is your feeling on the M42 smock and it's holster? Ddid you mean to just say a M38 and M40.

For others the M38 is the pockless step-in, the M40 is the improved step-in with pockets and relief zipper......and the M42 is the 3rd model with 5 bottons.

Eric, what would you call the early Heer and Luftwaffe dual zipper 1st model smock? M36 or M37???

Collectors create most of these models, so what the hell......

Willi

[JamesM]

Willi,

Any chance of you posting the pic of the FJ Pionier?

I have often looked for evidence of this holster being used and have thus far gone un-rewarded.

Thanks,

James

[John Hodgin]

Hi Willi, Steve, James and all,

Just got back on line and found your comments.

Willi, I certain the holsters on jump smocks are for flare pistols. However, the holster on my converted M40 splinter is sewn in such a manner that it cannot accomodate a flare pistol's trigger guard and barrel release lever. Is it possible that this is from the fabric shrinking? Perhaps, but a P-08 grip fits snugly.

Best,
John

[Eric Queen]

Willi,

This smock ( below ) first appreared in 1936 so I assume it would be ( or should be ) referred to as a Model 1936 or M36. It was used throughout 1937, and the first Model 1938's or M38 ( step in, single front zipper, no factory pockets) appeared in the early summer of 1938. I remember Johannes Schilling telling me that he was part of the "test group" for the new smocks when they were first introduced.

[John Hodgin]

Hi Eric,

Wonderful photo! Did Herr Schilling relate to you his impression of the new smock after wearing it during this "test?"

Best,
John

[Eric Queen]

I have a question for you guys. Do you remember this photo I posted a week or so ago of Helwig, Poerner and some others guys wearing the brand new M38's? Notice that some have army breast eagles, and some had no eagles at all. I thought this begged an interesting question. Did those smocks make it out of the factory with no breast eagles, or did they have Lw. eagles that were removed? Knowing how well the breast eagles were applied to early smocks ( nothing like the later loose zig-zag application ) you would think you could see where they had been removed if that was the case. If the eagles were not removed, how did they make it out of the factory this way? Is there a chance they could have been ordered with no breast eagle, and the apropriate eagles were applied at the QM level? Perhaps not likely, but an interesting question.

Any thoughts?

Eric

[Willi Z.]

James, I can't post the picture sorry.....will be using it in a book.

John, now I get your point...was alittle concerned. Maybe the conversion was improperly completed. Can you post a picture of a nice P08 in it....maybe I will do the same with a flare pistol.

Eric, yes the M38 step-in smock was authorised in the spring of 1938. My mint green step-in is dated July of 1938. Pockets were added at a later date.......after mid-'40. I would agree on the M36 designation. Interesting question on the eagles. Those early ones were so heavily zig-zag stitched. Maybe they removed the Luft eagle...and put a Heer one, or nothing, on it. Would find it hard to believe that they came without an eagle from the factory. Or did they come from the factory with a Heer eagle on it, in some cases? In 1938, as you clearly know, both the Luft and the Heer formed a FJ (FIB) battalion. The initial order for smocks could not have been too large. Would both the Luft and Heer placed separate orders for smocks? With their own respective eagles attached? I guess that will remain a mystery. Comments....thoughts.....

Willi

[Eric Queen]

Hey John,

Yes, Mr.Schilling told me that for the most part they liked the new design much better. They all felt that the dual zipper system was a bit cumbersome, and they didn't like the piece of material between the two zippers, that had to be tucked in. He showed me a picture of himself wearing the M38 during the trial period. This photo also clearly had no breast eagle. Iam with Willi on this one. Its a bit of a mystery. I have no idea how to explain it. Could it be that the ones used for testing had no eagles and the guys above are wearing ones that were used for testing?

Hard to say.

Eric

[John Hodgin]

Will try to shoot you a photo soon Willi.

Those Heer eagles were sewn on as well as the Luft. ones were. Removing an eagle sewn this way would have left a trace of the sewing that would clearly show in this superb photo. The smocks without eagles in Eric's photo show no sign of ever having had eagles. They were issued without eagles. Why would these Heer smocks have been issued without eagles? From spare stocks that both the Luft. and Heer could draw upon as needed? That's my theory.......Willi, you can yell at if I'm wrong

M-38 smocks without pockets are the coolest!

John

[John Hodgin]

Thanks Eric,

That photo never ceases to impress me. Very fine.....

John

[Willi Z.]

The second guy from the left has no eagle, but there does appear to be some sign of something there.......it may be a wrinkle too.....or just my old eyes......

Yes, I would agree that perhaps they made with with no eagles. Maybe for the Heer to add their own, since the M38 was a Luft design??? The M38 fabric does match the early Polizei tunics, the ones who formed the first Luft FJ units. Something to ponder..

M38 smocks issued with either Luft eagles or no eagles.............Heer FIB members had Heer eagles added....perhaps some of these guys had not gotten theirs done yet??? I could go with that.......

Yes, that photo is superb!!!

Willi

[SMP]

Holster

Thanks Guys,
I think John has answered part of my question. Most (all?)of the "odd" holsters were on converted green smocks. I looked through some of my books last night to find a photo to illustrate
what I mean, but the only ones I could find were in the book "Fallschirmjager" by Ryton; middle p.81 and top p.105 ( sorry can't post pictures ). I know I have seen better ones, but can't remember where. John, was it your impression these were local convertions ?
Willi, when can I buy a copy of your book ??!!
Regards,

Steve