Soldbuch Panzer Abeilung 208

[Archi]

Hello Oriano !

You are always finding some interesting documents. Interesting Soldbuch and as always very nice fotos.
Many thanks for showing !

Some remarks and questions :
1.) His last name : could it be Kunze (instead of Runze), if you look e.g. at his own signatures ?!

2.) Regarding the SB itself :
SB issued on 20.4.44 but a security check backdated on 1.12.43 ?! Is there an explanation ?
I don't think I have seen that before ...

3.) Regarding his early career :
a) If he was drafted pre war, with his age group it is possible that, he would have only had a very short time training (6-8 weeks).

b) if you combine the (relaively low) EKM number, the info from the Kav.Ers.Abt. 8 link that member barkhorn1 mentioned
in the other thread and the info from page 9 (immunizations), then the following is possible :
He could have been drafted (again) around March/April 1940. After ~3-4 month training he might have joined 213. ID
for a short while. The Division would be sent on holiday from Aug. 1940 - February 41.

Then we cannot be sure what happened, but :
At least in August 42, he was again serving with the Wehrmacht (1st hospital entry) and the 2nd and 3rd
hospital entries are made by field units, so around that time he should have served with a frontline unit.

I agree with naxos, that due to his health problems he probably had to short a time with a fronline unit to
become Gefreiter, but shouldn't he at least have been Oberschütze (or similar) at the time the Zweitschrift was issued ?

Sorry if I am only asking questions, but I think the later part of his career is already covered very well by Oriano.
It might be interesting, if it is possible to find out more on the earlier parts of this "Zweitschrift".
It is definatly is an interesting topic for further research IMO !

Best regards,

Archi

[naxos]

2.) Regarding the SB itself :
SB issued on 20.4.44 but a security check backdated on 1.12.43 ?! Is there an explanation ?
I don't think I have seen that before ...

Hi Archi,
here is a similar example:
Replacement SB issued on 15.01.45 with security check backdated to 01.09.44

[mufasa]

I think perhaps his health problems "scrotal hernia" kept him from advancing

thanks again Ironcrown and Naxos... always from the book by Di Giusto the Stab of the Panzer Abteilung 208 formed in the summer of 1944 by the Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 18 (Wehrkreis IV) WAF made up of 30% of patients and convalescents ... Gunter surely one of these and it seems from the pages of weapons assigned, ready for the frontline very late (the rifle in February 1945 and the P38 a month later)

[Archi]

Hello naxos !

Thanks for providing another example !
If I see it correct, in both cases, the Officers that signed the "Zweitschrift" are the
same that signed the backdated security check ?!

So in both cases they could confirm, that the soldier was already there at the earlier date ?

Anyway, thanks for this interestimg example,

Archi

[naxos]

Hello naxos !

Thanks for providing another example !
If I see it correct, in both cases, the Officers that signed the "Zweitschrift" are the
same that signed the backdated security check ?!

So in both cases they could confirm, that the soldier was already there at the earlier date ?

Anyway, thanks for this interestimg example,

Archi

Correct

[mufasa]

Hello Oriano !

You are always finding some interesting documents. Interesting Soldbuch and as always very nice fotos.
Many thanks for showing !

Some remarks and questions :
1.) His last name : could it be Kunze (instead of Runze), if you look e.g. at his own signatures ?!

2.) Regarding the SB itself :
SB issued on 20.4.44 but a security check backdated on 1.12.43 ?! Is there an explanation ?
I don't think I have seen that before ...

3.) Regarding his early career :
a) If he was drafted pre war, with his age group it is possible that, he would have only had a very short time training (6-8 weeks).

b) if you combine the (relaively low) EKM number, the info from the Kav.Ers.Abt. 8 link that member barkhorn1 mentioned
in the other thread and the info from page 9 (immunizations), then the following is possible :
He could have been drafted (again) around March/April 1940. After ~3-4 month training he might have joined 213. ID
for a short while. The Division would be sent on holiday from Aug. 1940 - February 41.

Then we cannot be sure what happened, but :
At least in August 42, he was again serving with the Wehrmacht (1st hospital entry) and the 2nd and 3rd
hospital entries are made by field units, so around that time he should have served with a frontline unit.

I agree with naxos, that due to his health problems he probably had to short a time with a fronline unit to
become Gefreiter, but shouldn't he at least have been Oberschütze (or similar) at the time the Zweitschrift was issued ?

Sorry if I am only asking questions, but I think the later part of his career is already covered very well by Oriano.
It might be interesting, if it is possible to find out more on the earlier parts of this "Zweitschrift".
It is definatly is an interesting topic for further research IMO !

Best regards,

Archi

thanks Archie for your careful and detailed considerations and comments
(as usual) and for all the new research ideas ..... yes, you are right : it should be Kunze and not Runze ... and thanks for your considerations before the issue Soldbuch because with the few elements (ekw, the hospitalization, and little more) the research, for me, are very complicated .... for a while the panzer pioneer photo confused me also because that Ostpreussen does not combine with any date and place of his operating state ( as I wrote in the previous post only from 1945 in Moldova Hungary and Slovenia he was assigned online troops), while during the training period of the Panzer Abteilung 208 in the OZAK, he was almost certainly assigned to the Stab (the pioneer Zug was a small unit of a few dozen soldiers) ...

[Archi]

Hello !

Just to make it clear :
I didn't want to add to the confusion. All I wanted to state is that in this case, as Ironcrown mentioned, although it is a Zweitschrift,
a lot of info is present. So there might be a chance, to find out more on his earlier career. IMO, for an April 1944 Zweitschrift,
there is often no chance, but in this case, it might be possible ...

Of course it is not easy, but if we put our brains together, there might be a chance at least ...

But not today, maybe tomorrow (famous carbibean attitude) ...

Best regards,

Archi

[mufasa]

Hello !

Just to make it clear :
I didn't want to add to the confusion. All I wanted to state is that in this case, as Ironcrown mentioned, although it is a Zweitschrift,
a lot of info is present. So there might be a chance, to find out more on his earlier career. IMO, for an April 1944 Zweitschrift,
there is often no chance, but in this case, it might be possible ...

Of course it is not easy, but if we put our brains together, there might be a chance at least ...

But not today, maybe tomorrow (famous carbibean attitude) ...

Best regards,

Archi

Thank Archi....

[mufasa]

Another nice research theme on this soldbuch is on this officer.
Leutnant Ernst Vootz (always according to Di Giusto's book) is from April to November 1944 Zugführer / Nachrichtenzug (Nachrichtenoffizier) of the Stab, while from November 1944 to his death he was Kp.Führer (and Nachrichtenoffizier) of the Stab.
Lt Ernst Vootz falls, as I wrote above, on April 1, 1945 on the outskirts of Vlčkovce, together with the command of the Abteilung, Hauptmann Loytved, who had advanced in the head on his tank, while the Leutnant Hirschfelder, wounded ,abandoned here his Panther .

[Archi]

Hello Oriano !

I think it always great, if you can identify some signatures and even more if some more details are known of that officer !
Nice work !

I just found one further piece of information :
His second entry on the hospital page seems to be from Kranken-Sammelstelle Dienststelle FPN 05433.
This would be Kranken-Transport-Abteilung or KTA 562.
This unit was located on the Krim peninsula, Southern Russia in mid 1943 according to this link in FdW :
https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/i...-817/&pageNo=2

So he should have been sent to the front before that time.

Best regards,

Archi

[mufasa]

Hello Oriano !

I think it always great, if you can identify some signatures and even more if some more details are known of that officer !
Nice work !

I just found one further piece of information :
His second entry on the hospital page seems to be from Kranken-Sammelstelle Dienststelle FPN 05433.
This would be Kranken-Transport-Abteilung or KTA 562.
This unit was located on the Krim peninsula, Southern Russia in mid 1943 according to this link in FdW :
https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/i...-817/&pageNo=2

So he should have been sent to the front before that time.

Best regards,

Archi

Great info and confirmation Archi.
Many thanks
Oriano