Hoping for help understanding some Soldbuch entries

[Archi]

Hello !

I am hoping for some help in reading and understanding this Soldbuch. Any comments or help
on the entries or units mentioned here are welcome !

The SB is a Zweitschrift, issued to Lt. Müller, on 10. Dez. 1943 by II./Gren.Rgt. 362 of 196. Inf.Div.
196. ID was located in Norway from 1940 to July, 1944.
The SB has suffered some water damage, so some entries are hard to read.

The first set of questions is related to the hospital entries on p.12/13 :
=> I can read only some of the handwriting
=> I am also not sure, how the different entries in the columns are related to each other

Therefore I hope for any corrections and/or filling the gaps / ???:
-line 1: K.L. 3/610 27.12.41 illness -25- release : 20.IV.42 dfg. Z (?!) mit 8 Tagen Schonung
-line 2: in der ??? 13.06.42 Gr.Splitter ??? (no release date ?!)
-line 3: Reserve-Lazarett Insterburg /?? Bauch-Durchschuß
-line 4: Abt. Horst-Wessel-Schule 19.12.42 -no entry- release : 23.13.42 Laz.Zug
-line 5/6: Reservelazarett Marienburg/??? 23.12.1942
- Unfallverletzung an der Innenseite der re. Hand durch Patrone - release : 28.1.43 dfg, u. g.v.H f. 8 Wochen

My questions :
Do line 3 and 4 belong together ?
What kind of explanation for the wounding in line 5/6 ? Is this connected to line 3 and 4 ?!
(In Feb. 1943, he was granted 4 weeks Genesungs- und Erholungsurlaub).

All the woundings above had happened before the Soldbuch was reissued. The next group of entries afterwards.
Similar questions :
- what is written after "Granat-Splitter" ?
- In line 11 : is that : Kolbenschlag … ? Never saw that kind of entry.
- Which is the name of the Kriegslazarett in line 11 ?

-line 8: ?.?.?. 84. I.D. (?!) 14/5/44 Granat Splitter ??? release 7.6.44 dfg.
-line 9: ------ -------- ---- 9/12/44 Granat Splitter ??? no release date
-line 10:------ -------- ---- 5.2.45 --- "--- --- " --- ??? no release date
-line 11: Kriegslazarett ???? 18.2.45 Kolbenschlag Gesicht (?) 12.3.45 dfg.
[see closeup scan]
-line 12-14: Ambulanten-Abteilung 1 Chemnitz Jahn???str. 87 Ambulante Behandlung !
below that ... illegible ?! ... [see closeup scan]

Additional question :
I have never payed much attention to the tooth page (p. 16).
Here, several teeth are noted as missing/replaced. Is it likely, that this is related to the wounding entry in line 11 ?

I'll display the whole page as regular scan, than an enhanced image of the hard to read entries,
with closeups and finally SB p. 16.

[Archi]

2nd group of questions :
The sequence of his units since Dec. 43 is much more clear, but there are also some questions :

- II./GrenRgt. 362 since Dec. 1943
- III./GrenRgt. 362 at least since Feb. 1944 [security check 10.2.44]
- Feldersatz-Btl. 233 (also 196. ID) at least since 5.7.44 (entry dated 5.7.44 by Feldersatz-Btl. 196), see scan.

196. ID was transported off from Norway, starting 11.7.44 and arrived in Denmark by early 21.7.44.
Soon after, it was committed at the Estern front, already close to the border of East Prussia.
(in early August near Kalvarija (15km SW of Mariampol). It must have suffered severe losses, as 196. ID
was dissolved, with some elements incorporated into 131. ID and other parts were sent to training ground Wahn,
for the rebuild of 361. VGD. This was also the way of Lt. Müller.

On the 17.9.44, as a reaction to the airlandings at Arnheim, the 361. VGD had to form an Alarm-Rgt. This unit was
designated as Rgt. Wahn, because of its place of formation.
The Kdr. of Rgt. Wahn was Oberst Katzmann (Kdr. of Gren.Rgt. 951).

=> If anyone has further informations on this Oberst Katzmann (surname ?) or his units, I would really appreciate it .

Rgt. Wahn at some point became redesignated to KGr. Katzmann and by end of 1944 was used to
form a 3rd Rgt. of 84. ID, Gren.Rgt. 1062.
=> How this happened in detail, I would like to understand.

My questions :
1.) It looks to me that he alway stayed in the same company, with Kr.St.Nr. 8 / 44 :
On his security check on 1.9.44 this KStNr. 8 / 44 is already entered. And it never changed !
Is it a justified assumption, that this points to him staying in the same company ?

2.) Lt. Müller was promoted to Oberleutnant on 1.1.45.
Can someone read/make a guess on the signature of the p.3 promotion entry and also what
is written regarding the rank and position ?
That would be a great help .

There are more questions, but I'll stop here and ask the other questions, if some of the above topics had been clarified.

Thanks in advance and best regards,

Archi

[Lionel H.]

Hi my Friend.

I can help you for some Entries, not all.... My Wish : send please on my email adress a 600 or 1200 dpi scan, without modifying it in any Way. That would be important for the lower part of the Page....

Line 2 : "Bei der TRuppe - Granatsplitter linke Oberschenkel"
Line 5/6 : "Reservelaz. Marienburg/Wpr. "(= Westpreussen)

Ligne 3 and 4 belongs together.

Line 8 : "H.v.P. 89.I.D." (= Hauptverbandsplatz)
Line 9 : Gr.Splitter rechte Unterschenkel
Line 10 : Granatsplitter linke Knie (not 100% sure about this one...)

Line : For the moment and before getting from you a better scan, I also read "Kolbenschlag Gesicht"..... that would be a CRAZY ENTRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For non german speaking Members, I thing the most appropriate translation would be "pistol-whipping in the face".... That would definitely be the first time I see something like this in the Wound page... It definitely needs more researches.....

[Lionel H.]

You didn't asked for, but the signature under the Stamp from 1.9.44 is Lt.u.Adjutant von zur Gathen, a rather rare german Name. I had contact with the Family some Years ago, concerning Wachtmeister Helmut v.z.Gathen, German Cross in Gold Bearer.

[Archi]

Hello Lionel !

Many thanks for your help !
Very interesting info on Lt. von zur Gathen, I never would have recognized
that name or his connection to a DKiG holder !

Scans are on the way.

Best regards,

Archi

[Ian Jewison]

Hi Archi,

Been busy.....what's still outstanding? Perhaps I can help

/Ian

[Archi]

Hello Ian !

Many thanks for offering additional help. It would be great, if you (or some other members) could help
to clarify some of the still open questions .

I think Lionel clarified many of the reading problems.
Still open regarding reading problems :
- Line 8 : I also read H.V.P. 84. ID/89. ID : what is written behind Granat-Splitter ?!

- Line 11 : I'll attach a hopefully better scan.
a) Is that wounding entry : Kolbenschlag Gesicht ? (I never saw such a kind of entry).
b) Name of the Kriegslazarett : Could it be Bocholt ?!

- Line 14 : What is written below: "Ambulante Behandlung !" ?

------------
SB p. 16 entry [tooth page] (as I am lacking experience) :
a) What do those entries mean ? Are the marked teeth replaced or missing ?
b) Could these entries (dated 3.3.45) be related to the wounding entry dated 18.2.45 ?

------------
More important for me are the problems in understanding :
After joining 196. ID, he was with III./G.R. 362 at least until April 1944 (leave entry).
By 5.7.44, he must have been transfered to Feldersatz-Btl. 233 (former FEB 196), same division (shoe soles entry, p. 21).

1.a) Therefore the wounding entry dated 14.5.44 is mysterious : There was no combat in Norway.
Could it be related to a bombing raid or a training accident ?
1.b) The (doubtful) connection to 84. or 89. ID : could it be a clerk mistake ?

2.) All entries on p. 12-13 in line 8-11 seem to be made by the same person (and then probably in Feb. 1945).
Does this occur occasionally, that former woundings are entered only later on into the Soldbuch ?
(For lines 9-11, a connection to H.V.P. 84. ID and the battles in the Reichswald/Kleve area would make sense.)

3.) This I noticed only due to the info from Lionel :
- security check on 1.9.1944 is signed by Lt. v.z. Gathen
- however, all the awards entered into the Soldbuch are also signed by him ! This would imply to me, that all
the awards were not entered, when the Zweitschrift was issued, but only 9 month later, in Sept. 1944 ?! How likely is that ?
This Soldbuch is getting more and more mysterious !

============
The most interesting question for me, still open, is :
- Lt. Müllers units changed several times, but from 1.9.44 onward, he always has the same Kr.St.Nr. 8.
Does this imply, that he always stayed within the same company ?
(which afterwards would have been subordinated to different headquarters).
This would be the most important qestion for me.

Thanks in advance for any help/suggestions/ideas and best regards,

Archi

[naxos]

Hallo Archi,

I start with this - you know most of it already

[naxos]

Not sure whats before and after "Bruchdurchschuss"

[naxos]

Chemnitz, Jahnbaude Fürstenstraße 87

[mufasa]

really interesting discussion. thank

Ciao Oriano

[Yubari]

valuable information here!

[Archi]

Hello naxos !

Many thanks.
Great job and excellent help !
I'm trying to write more tomorrow, too tired today.

Best regards,

Archi

[Archi]

Hello !

Sorry, this took much longer than planned.
First I wanted to thank naxos and Lionel for their great help in deciphering all important entries on p. 12/13 :

Here are the now deciphered entries, for a better overview :
-line 1: K.L. 3/610 - 27.12.41 illness -25- release : 20.IV.42 dfg. Z (?!) mit 8 Tagen Schonung
-line 2: in der Truppe - 13.06.42 Gr.Splitter linker Oberschenkel
-line 3: Reserve-Lazarett Insterburg - Bauch-Durchschuß
-line 4: Abt. Horst-Wessel-Schule - 19.12.42 release : 23.13.42 Laz.Zug
-line 5/6: Reservelazarett Marienburg/Wpr.[Westpreussen] - 23.12.1942
- Unfallverletzung an der Innenseite der re. Hand durch Patrone - release : 28.1.43 dfg, u. g.v.H f. 8 Wochen

-line 8: H.V.P. 84. I.D. (?!) 14/5/44 Granat Splitter Hüften - release 7.6.44 dfg.
-line 9: ------ -------- ---- 9/12/44 Granat Splitter re.[chtes] Hinterhaupt, no release date
-line 10:------ -------- ---- 5.2.45 --- "--- --- " --- li.[nkes] Knie; no release date
-line 11: Kriegslazarett Krefeld (?) 18.2.45 Kolbenschlag Gesicht 12.3.45 dfg.
(possibly related to this entry is the p. 16 entry, with 10 missing/replaced teeth ?! Kriegslaz. 4/614 was in
the vicinity of Enschede).

-line 12-14: Ambulanten-Abteilung 1 Chemnitz Jahnbaude, Fürstenstr. 87 - Ambulante Behandlung !
below that : ??? Bruchdurchschuss ...
(The very bottom entry is probably too damaged to decipher completely. Perhaps : ??? Bruchdurchschuss Handw.[urzel] ?!)

----------
What remains open, are the problems in understanding :
I'll start with those questions, related to the woundings :

I would like to relate the woundings (resp. illnesses, accidents) to the places of combat/etc., where/why they happened :
1.) Kriegslazarett 610 in Oct. 1941 was at Cherson, near the entrance to the Krim
2.) 13.06.42 : perhaps also Krim related (?!) [for this wounding, he received the VWA (Schwarz)]
3.) line 3/4 : Dec. 42 : perhaps much further north, but likely also a combat wound.
=> 4.) line 5/6 : But how could this have happened, while still suffering from a Bauchdurchschuss ?
Unfall/accident durch Patrone : pointing to playing with his weapon ?!

--------
5.) line 8 : In May 1944, he was very likely with 196. ID in Norway.
=> 5.1) How to to explain the severe wounding ? Bombing raid, training accident ? (it should have been his 3rd wounding,
but no VWA (silber)).
=> 5.2) I really don't understand the H.V.P. 84. I.D. entry for this date. A clerk error ?

From Oct. 1944 onward, Rgt. Wahn/KGr. Katzmann always fought in close vicinity to 84. ID and in late Dec. 44, finally
became Gren.Rgt 1062 of 84. ID. So for all entries after Oct. 44, an entry H.V.P. 84. ID would be understandable :
6.) 9.12.44 entry : likely happened West of Kleve, N of the Reichswald area. (this was either his 3rd or 4th wounding
and would explain the VWA (silber) entry, dated 11.1.45).

7.) 5.2.45 wounding : At that time, II./Gren.Rgt. 1062 held positions near Milsbeek, ~3km S of Groesbeek.
The wounding could be related to an arty barrage/Jabo attack, related to preparations for "Operation Veritable".
(He probably was only lightly wounded and stayed with his unit).

8.) 18.2.45 wounding : the entry with : "Kolbenschlag Gesicht".
a) From 12.2.-16.2., GR 1062 was involved in heavy fighting at the eastern rim of the Reichswald and
then held defensive positions NW of Goch.

b) I never saw this kind of entry : IMO, it could be caused either by a pistol (as Lionel suggested) or perhaps also by
a Gewehrkolben (gunstock/ rifle butt). A hefty smash into the face would also explain the many missing/replaced teeth on p. 16 ?!
[This would point to a close combate wounding. Likely, there was also an additional wounding, causing the Bruchdurchschuss,
deciphered by naxos, which might have taken an even longer time to cure (then at Chemnitz)].

=> 9.) It seems to me, that all wounding entries from line 8-11 are made by the same person (so with many month delay) ?!
a) Would you agree (because of the handwriting) ?
b) Did that happen occasionally ?

Many thanks again for the help so far, any additional input would be appreciated .

Best regards,

Archi

[Floris]

If he was only lightly wounded at 5.2.1945 (most probarly by artillery I think) his opponents a few days later will be the Canadian Battalions 5th Black Watch and the 1/5/7 Gordon Highlanders.