What date is the earliest Soldbuch in your collection ?!

[mr.dogtag]

Interesting. Can you please show dog tag entries on these early Soldbucher.

[naxos]

Interesting. Can you please show dog tag entries on these early Soldbucher.

Here is one

[Joda]

No date earlier then the ones you already mentioned..
Just my contribution to this interesting thread

My earliest is 27.8.1939

[mtdr]

Interesting thread. Here is another early one. Opened on 11.04.1939 as part of the Infanterie-Regiment (motorisiert) 15, 29. Infanterie-Division (mot.). This man was since 1934 in the Reichswehr and later Wehrmacht.

Aram

[Archi]

Hello !

Many thanks to all members for their ongoing interest and their contributions to this thread !

The posting of Aram/mtdr is very interesting, but at the same time also very puzzling to me.

11.4.39 is not connected to any special date as far as I see.
At that time IR 15(mot) had already taken part in the occupation of Cekoslovakia (since ~11.3.39),
but was still in the field, in the area of Caslau - Kuttenberg. It started its way back home on the 14./15.4.,
according to the history by Lemelsen.

In addition, if this SB is to a soldier serving since 1934, it cannot be connected to any redraft for training etc.
New infos, new puzzles it seems .

Best regards,

Archi

[Archi]

Hello !

Something, which might be of interest :
The signature shown by Aram seems to me could be of an: Oberleutnant Bethge.

In the Stellenbesetzung of 3.Jan. 1939, there is a Leutnant Bethge affiliated with 4.(MG) Kp. IR(mot) 15.
(so different co., but also MG.Kp.).

And then there is a Hptm. Klaus Bethge, who was awarded the DKiG on 19.4.42, with 14./IR 15(mot).
If this is the same person, it should be possible that someone has more info on him, especially when,
he became promoted to Oberleutnant.
That could help to get further info when that SB entry was made .

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[peterm]

Here are two more Soldbücher (1 Heer, 1 Luftwaffe).

Best, Peter

[PanzerElite]

now i believe soldbuch dated 1938 do exist !
what is the earliest of SS soldbuch?

[Angel Farré]

Deeping into the first dates on Soldbuch I was lucky enough to find a piece from the 1 Panzer Division that, maybe, put some light into this matter.

Both Soldbuchs were open by 5./S.R. 1, both signed bu the same Hauptmann and both with the same stamp used.

This is not rare but now start the good news, top was dated March 12th, 1.939 and bottom August 15th, 1.939. My first impression and the same with other collectors is that the first date is the induction into the Wehrmacht or his transfer to the unit, too early for the mobilization dates and the time normally admitted to be the first time the Soldbuch was used. What can help us to narrow it? The Dogtag number, top is 79 for the 79 Soldbuch open by the unit and bottom is 62 for 36 Soldbuch so how can you receive a lower number Soldbuch and Dogtag almost 5 months after the top one were done?

Not bulletproof but I think a good starting point, anyone has similar combos?

Cheers

Angel

[Archi]

Hello !

@Peterm : Sorry, I must have overlooked your 2nd contribution. It seems to show,
that 44. ID should be added to the list of early mobilized IDs. Many thanks !

@Angel :
This is indeed an excellent idea !

First I would like to share some observations/questions :
Both these SBs share many similarities, but have also some differences :
- signature seems to be from Hptm. Borowansky (according to Stellenbestzung from 3.1.39)
- Both SBs seem to have been filled in by different persons/clerks (handwriting, entries made/left out)
- Both soldiers started as Schützen, but Lorenz was promoted to Oberschütze already in Nov. 1939,
while Dias was promoted only in April 1940. As this promotion should have taken place after ~6 months service,
it would be (roughly) consistent with Lorenz beeing drafted in March 39, and Dias only in August 39.

Now, if the (running) SB number of Dias (#36) is lower than that of Lorenz (#79) it should confirm,
that both SBs were issued around the same time (Aug. 1939), and that the date entered in the Lorenz SB
is likely that date he was drafted. Or is there any other explanation ?!

I find one thing very surprising :
Both EKM have very similar numbers, so they should have been issued around the same time.
But the unit designation is very different :
- 5. Sch.Reg. 1 / 79 for Lorenz
- 5. S.R. 1 #62 for Dias
I would have thought, at least within every company that "unit abbreviation" [S.R. or Sch.Reg.] should be the same ?!

Another question connected to that :
If a unit was mobilized, would the number of the EKM be first entered into the Soldbuch and then the soldier
goes with this SB to the next office, where "his" EKM would be stamped ?
Or would the EKM be prepared first, and would then just be filled in into the Soldbuch ?

Any further ideas, comments or other examples, just as Angel suggested, would be really great !

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[Admiraal]

I haven't looked at all my Soldbücher, but after a quick search i found the following early dates from before Sept.1939:

01-07-1939 (5./A.R.116)
27-07-1939 (Stab III./A.R. 14)
10-08-1939 (Stab, 1.Panzer-Division)
20-08-1939 (???./A.R.38)
27-08-1939 (Reiter-Schwadron, A.A. 169)
27-08-1939 (L.Inf.Kol./I.R.423)
27-08-1939 (6./I.R.57)
28-08-1939 (13./I.R.181)

My earliest Zweitschrift Soldbuch is dated 8-11-1939.

[Archi]

Hello Rick !

Thanks for your interesting contribution !
Only now I had some time to look up those dates in some detail :

- 01-07-1939 (5./A.R.116) : Part of 5. Pz.Div. I do not have the Divisional history, so I cannot comment.
(But it seems very early ...)

- 10-08-1939 (Stab, 1.Panzer-Division)
After a much longer look into the divisional history, mobilization preparations started already in
first half of August,
but the situation was different for the different individual branches (Rgts./Btls.). (the attached scan is for Pz.Rgt. 1).
The division as a whole assembled near Oppeln around 24./25.8.1939.
So, at least parts of 1.Pz.Div. should be added to the early mobilized divisions !

- 27-07-1939 (Stab III./A.R. 14) : Part of 14. Inf.Div., one of the earliest mobilized divisions.
Mob.-date 3.8.39 according to Tessin, but maybe it started even earlier, as shown here !

- 20-08-1939 (???./A.R.38) : It depends ...
a) If I./A.R. 38, it would be part of 2. ID(mot) and would match the date of mobilization in my list ( Yippie !)
b) If II./A.R. 38, it would be part of II. A.K. ... I have no infos on that.

------------------
27-08-1939 (Reiter-Schwadron, A.A. 169) : 69. ID, (2nd wave) formed at mobilization
27-08-1939 (L.Inf.Kol./I.R.423) : 212. ID, (3rd wave) formed at mobilization
27-08-1939 (6./I.R.57) : 9. ID, (1st wave, but not an early mobilized division)
28-08-1939 (13./I.R.181) : 52. ID, (2nd wave) formed at mobilization

3 of the last four units were only formed at mobilization, and IR. 57, as part of 9. Inf.Div., is also expected
to be mobilized at the same time. So, no surprises here !

Best regards,

Archi

[Archi]

Hello !

Finally, I can make my own contribution to this thread :
Soldbuch is from a soldier from Nachrichten-Abteilung 7, part of 7. Inf.Div.

This Soldbuch was opened on : 01.08.1939
7.Inf.Div. mobilization date : 01.08.1939 (according to my list)

So, at least there are some cases, that match the expectations and do not cause more confusion !

------------------
I am still puzzled by the examples that Angel posted recently, for two reasons :
a) I have looked now through many of my Soldbuchs, and (in short) most of them display :
Soldbuch Nr. XYZ = EKM XYZ,
a pattern which I would expect, at least for those Soldbuchs, issued very early.
(But Angel posted an example which shows something clearly different : SB #36, EKM #62).

b) In addition, for Soldbuchs issued around the same time, I would expect the "very same unit abbreviation".
(But Angel posted an example which shows something clearly different: 5./S.R.1 #62 and 5/.Sch.Reg.1 #79).

Therefore, it might be useful in further contributions, if you could show page 1 in addition to p. 2 of the Soldbuch,
as it might be :
a) interesting to solve the puzzles above
b) in addition, helping the EKM collector community (as shown by the question of mr.dogtag)

Many thanks in advance for any further examples and ideas to this thread !

Best regards,

Archi

[muno11]

Here is one

Hmmmm....KSR 9 was formend in October 1938 (!!) - as well as KSR 8, both were the Mot.-parts of 3. leichte Division.

Some things don't fit together, I think ...

[Admiraal]

Archi, thanks for the extra information

Here are page 1 and 2 from the 1.PzDiv and A.R.116 Soldbuch.
Note that the Soldbuch and EKM number of the A.R.116 Soldbuch do not match!