How to deal with historical interesting SBs with later or fake addon entires ?

[Archi]

Hello to all !

I am hoping for some oppinions on a difficult question, that puzzles me now for quite some time :
How to deal with historical interesting and original Soldbuchs (etc.), that have been damaged by later added/unofficial entries ?!
As the question may sound stupid and the answer so obvious (just stay away), let me explain why I post it here nevertheless :

My major interest in collecting documents, is to search for uncommon units (especially Walküre/Gneisenau units in the West,
and the units they were incorporated. But there are many other interests as well, units fighting at Metz 1944,
at the Kaukasus 42/43, Heeres-Artillerie units etc. ).
As docs related to these are often hard to find and many of them are also not advertised too much,
it always drives me crazy, if some of them show up, but they are "damaged" by entries, that are not original !
My general question would be : How to deal with such "damaged" items ?

This thread is related to another one (and has been partially answered),
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...9&postcount=34
but in my original intention, I wanted to extend it a bit, to at least two special cases :
1.) Entries that are added by fakers, to boost the price, but that are so obviously wrong, that NOBODY can fell into it
2.) => My major point : Entries, that are added by the soldiers themselves (for various reasons)

regarding point 1.) :
I first thought, I could use as best examples 2 Soldbuchs with "Ärmelband Metz" entries, merged into security checks on p. 15,
that are currently for sale at Weitze.
https://www.weitze.fr/militaria/30/S...z__100930.html
https://www.weitze.net/militaria/07/...Z__160107.html
But after the reply from Lionel, (and after some thought: if Weitze sells it (and advertises it as true! ), why should
NOBODY else fell into it ?!), I came to the conclusion, that there simply might be nothing like a "fool proof" "100% wrong" entry.
(Ironically, one of those SBs is even advertised with an additional document, that confirms that the soldier in Sept. 44
was 100 km away from the area, that would qualify him for the award.)
So, in these cases, the only option for me seems to stay away, even if the rest of the SB is highly interesting .

2.) I have now seen numerous cases, where I would be 99.9 % sure, that some additional entries are added by the soldiers themselves.
IMO, this seems often to happen with rank entries, woundbadges/VWA, but also with award entries.
Many times I have seen entries, obviously later added to otherwise legitimate entries with : "dito" or: +EK 1 or similar
I'll provide an example below, where the soldier promoted himself from Gefreiter to Obergefreiter and also (because of his second
wounding ?!) awarded himself a VWA(Silber).

My question would be here :
Do you consider these 2.) cases simply the same as point 1.) or would you consider to pick up such pieces, without casting any shadows
on your collection (as: falling into fakes/potentially selling fakes) ?!

Point 2.) contains a subpoint 2.a), which I have also some examples of :
It seems that soldiers occasionally used their Soldbuch as notebook (which could sometimes even tell some tragic stories, dealing with
captivity or the medical operations/amputations they had to go through).
As these are also nonofficial entries, would these kind of entries be considered as similar "damage" as the above (or sth. different) ?

Thanks for any response/oppinion and best regards,

Archi

[Friedhelm]

Hi,

First your question... It depends on how its done I once saw a original Soldbuch with a Ritterkreuz added with pencil that could be erased easily. But things done with a pen like your examples are not possible to be removed unless you get some special ink remover stuff. But I doubt the statement you make about these case 2 soldbuch entries. I dont think these are original applied by the soldiers themselves? The entries are made with pen they didn't had back then. I just googled and Wikipedia tells me that the first Pen that was produced without it leaking was in 1945. Well no one had one back then so these entries are definitely not war time. Than again anyone could have added these so I wouldn't make a difference between example one and two.

You could try to remove these with acetone or something similair but I think your entire Soldbuch will fade away... so I think it simply not something that is easy to remove. Personally if I had a soldbuch with something like this added I would take my pencil and scratch trough it so its no longer readable and its more like a stain. It will always be available and if its not done by pencil you will never get rid of it and you only have the chance to ruin your original entries.

Regards,
Friedhelm

[naxos]

Good questions, Archi

SBs with forged entries (unless they can be removed without damaging the Soldbuch) I would never buy. In my opinion they have lost most if not all their value besides you may inadvertently encourage fakers to ruin more documents by buying them.

SBs with entries that were added by the owner with no intent to deceive or to increase the value of the document are certainly less desirable but not necessarily a deal-breaker for me.


.

[Archi]

Hello Friedhelm and naxos !

Many thanks for sharing your opinions on this difficult topic.
This question has puzzled me for quite some time.

@Friedhelm :
Your answer points out to something important, I probably have not been thinking of correctly.
I fully agree, that the entries shown, are made with a "Kugelschreiber" or pen and therefore are doubtlessly postwar.
My line of reasoning was :
a) because this is so obvious postwar,
b) + in addition, the addon-entries do not change the worth of the SB substantially,
I could only imagine, that this entry has been added by the soldier himself (and not being an attempt, to upgrade the worth of the SB).
And therefore, I considered the two cases : Upgrade added to make money and Upgrade by the owner of the SB,
without financial interests, but for some personal reasons.

But after some longer thoughts on this topic, I realized that others might not agree with my reasoning
and it could also be simply a very poor fake attempt, made by someone buying/selling this a long time ago (just as you stated).
And there will never be a clear way, to find out the intention (without doubt), why this entry was made.
Therefore, there might never be a such a clear distinction between case 1.) and 2.), as I originally thought before.

@naxos :
Thanks for your explanations. That helps me a lot, what to look for and what to avoid !
I'll try to post an example for case 2.a) very soon.

Thanks to both of you for your help and best regards,

Archi

[naxos]

Archi

Here is an example for Case 2 - that is fine with me . I see no issues.

Some minor corrections have been made to the document by the officer.

[Friedhelm]

Hello Archi,

Your idea of the difference between a value upgrading entrie and a non upgrading entrie is correct I guess. But than we must look trough the collectors eyes (our own) and than for me it makes no difference. Fake is Fake, denazified is denazified. As a collector I want items that are 100% original..

Then we have this example of Naxos document which seems more like a correction instead of fake entries also these have not been written with 'Kugelschreiber' (As far as I can see on this scan.) So these could be war applied and could correct mistakes made by some administrator. So there is a difference between your examples that add things to the book and a 'correction' of a document which could easily be possible back then. I would say the Naxos document is no problem for me to buy.

Regards,
Friedhelm

[mufasa]

Good questions, Archi

SBs with forged entries (unless they can be removed without damaging the Soldbuch) I would never buy. In my opinion they have lost most if not all their value besides you may inadvertently encourage fakers to ruin more documents by buying them.

SBs with entries that were added by the owner with no intent to deceive or to increase the value of the document are certainly less desirable but not necessarily a deal-breaker for me.


.

it is exactly my opinion ....

[JUNGCO]

+2

[Gorg]

Hello,

I have the same opinion. If it has additions, I don't want it. The only thing that I can accept is the modification Naxos shows, where it's obviously a wartime little correction (i.e adding a letter to a name, changing the month of birth, the kind of error that the guy who wrote it makes).

Greg.

[Archi]

Hello all !

I thank you all very much for your opinions and explanations.
I found this discussion very useful to clarify the matter.
I think I have now understand the problems with forged entries and I agree with your points.

There remains the one point, where soldiers made some entries themself, but

with no intent to deceive or to increase the value

Naxos posted an interesting example (thanks for that (and very interesting units BTW !)),
I was thinking of slightly different entries, where the soldiers noted addresses of comrades,
added dates when something happened etc.

I'll post an extreme example of a soldier from Marine-Flak-Abt. 215, who fought at Pillau
in 1945 and used several pages of his SB to describe how he went into captivity and when he was
released. I found this interesting, because it tells in part a tragic story.
On his release, he writes "es war der schönste Tag meines Lebens" (it was the most beautiful day
of my life). 10 days later, he died in a hospital in Frankfurt/Oder !

Would this fall into the category mentioned by naxos, or is it already too much, which
does not belong into a Soldbuch ?

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[naxos]

Hello all !


I'll post an extreme example of a soldier from Marine-Flak-Abt. 215, who fought at Pillau
in 1945 and used several pages of his SB to describe how he went into captivity and when he was
released. I found this interesting, because it tells in part a tragic story.
On his release, he writes "es war der schönste Tag meines Lebens" (it was the most beautiful day
of my life). 10 days later, he died in a hospital in Frankfurt/Oder !

Would this fall into the category mentioned by naxos, or is it already too much, which
does not belong into a Soldbuch ?

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

Archi, I find your example above actually enriches the Soldbuch. In my opinion it adds to the value and makes it more desirable.

.

[Edward]

Agree with Naxos. Immediate post-war annotations entered either by the service member while a POW, or by related camp staff (POW staff, or Allied authorities) are legitimate and add to the history of the piece. Not sure that all such entries, or personal notes would necessarily increase a passbooks market value, but they can certainly make for interesting reading and possible further research.

[Archi]

Hello naxos and Edward !

Many thanks for your additional opinions and examples.
I hope, I do now have a much better understanding, what is acceptable
(or even interesting) and what not.

Best regards,

Archi

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

IMHO any additional notes written after the war could be acceptable, I think that it is part of the history of the man but regarding the "fake" entries , if from one side obviously anyone would stay far way ...I think too that if thesb belong to an unit that we are looking for and it is in our collecting field I could consider to buy it but only if the price reflect the status of it. It is a "damaged" booklet and we pay according to that.

[Archi]

Hello Tora_Tora_Tora!

Thanks for your additional input and thoughts.
I think I have now some good guidelines, what to go for !

Best regards,

Archi