Soldbuch italian "Panzerspähwagen"

[Ian Jewison]

no, I can not understand the 192 ?? is of line below of the "Oberbeck" unit?

Yes it's related to Oberbeck being crossed out and 192 written in it's place.

This was posted on MFF about a year ago (C) borisb

[mufasa]

Yes it's related to Oberbeck being crossed out and 192 written in it's place.

This was posted on MFF about a year ago (C) borisb

But I found that the training for Pz-Sp.Wg. (drivers, pointers, serving / radio operators and chief) lasted exactly 2 months and 15 days ....
ciao Oriano

[Raffaello Carola]

Dear Oriano,

very nice thread thanks for sharing
cheers
Raffaello

[mufasa]

Dear Oriano,

very nice thread thanks for sharing
cheers
Raffaello

many thanks Raffaello!

cioa Oriano

[Archi]

Hi !

Oriano, a very interesting SB and also an excellent presentation, with fantastic photos ! Thanks for sharing .

Some additional infos, which I hope might be useful :
Panzer-Ausbildungsstab Süd was formed in Oct. 1943 und subordinated to Aufstellungsstab Süd (see scan).
I'm not totally sure on the handwriting, but I think the task of Aufstellungsstab Süd was :
"Erfassung von italienischen gep.(anzerten) Kfz. und Gerät" (procurement of Italian armoured vehicles and ordnance)
and the task of the Pz.Ausb.Abt. Süd was training on this.
The latter unit would consist of 4 training companies :
1. for leichte Panzer, 2. for Pz.Spw., 3. for Pzjg. (Sfl., selfpropelled), 4. Werkstatt-Kp. (workshop co.).

Regarding the reorganization of H.Pz.AA. 400 and especially the rebuilding of the 1. Pz.Späh-Kp.:
a) According to a Zustandsbericht from 1. Aug. 1944, at that time, the AA consisted only
of 2 Pz.Gren.-Kp. and a schwere Kp. while the rebuilding of the Pz.Späh-Kp. was at the very
start (only 4 Pz.Spw. present, while the Soll is given with 19). So maybe, in December 1944
the Kp. was at full strength with 19, and the Soll was later upgraded to 25 (resulting in the
delivery of an additional 6 Pz.Spw.) ?!

b) The full Soll strength of the Abteilung in August would be 18 Offc./ 180 NCOs / 657 EM = 855 total, of which
3 Offc./ 79 NCos / 266 men were still not replaced. (45 replacements and 13 Genesende had arrived in July).
This gives an idea of the high losses of the unit in spring.

c) The report also states that the personnel of the Abteilung that was present, consists to a large degree of
fully trained soldiers (who also had seen action in spring, because they were with the unit since its formation).
Therefore, the individual companies were assigned a very high combat level of I (capable of any attack action),
while the unit as a whole, mainly because of the lack of transport for the 3 s.Pak, the missing Pz.Späh-Kp.
and the missing replacements, was only judged at a combat level IV (restricted readiness for defensive tasks).

There maybe more interesting facts in this report, if it could help, just let me know .


I also really enjoyed the discussion on the connection to "Pz.Aufkl.Abt. Oberbeck" resp. Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 192 .
a) because it clearly answered to me a question I was going to ask : is it worth to collect SB, WP etc. with
torn out, missing pages, if the unit is interesting ?! [How many more pages of a SB could be missing ?]

b) Because this Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung Oberbeck / 192 seems to be a fascinating riddle itself !
As it seems to be a longlasting search (20 years, wow !) I would like to venture a guess, that Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 192
"could" be related to Panzergrenadier-Brigade 92, (only to give a possible hint for further research).
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...gade/PGB92.htm
But this is based only on the numbering, the timeframe, and very loosely the location (southeast), not on
any exact information.

Gren.Brig.(mot) 92 was smashed in Oct. 1944 near Belgrad and renamed, refitted and reinforced in January 1945.
By then it received the designation Panzergrenadier-Brigade 92, and the already existing Art.-Battr. and Pi-Kp.
were expanded to battalion sized units and also a Pz.Jg. Abt. was added, all with designation 192.
The recon-component of the Brigade would be a Aufkl.Kp. 192 according to a book by Stoves, maybe it was merged
with Pz.Aufkl.Abt. Oberbeck later on ?!
(very speculative, I know , but the only way I could make sense of the 192 !)

Thanks for this thread,
Cheers,

Archi

[mufasa]

really thanks Archi for the interesting and detailed additions ....

I keep them for tonight when I get home to read them with more attention ....

ciao Oriano

[Ian Jewison]

I also really enjoyed the discussion on the connection to "Pz.Aufkl.Abt. Oberbeck" resp. Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 192 .
a) because it clearly answered to me a question I was going to ask : is it worth to collect SB, WP etc. with torn out, missing pages, if the unit is interesting ?! [How many more pages of a SB could be missing ?]

Thanks for the info Archi!

To be honest, Herr Schiller got it completely wrong, orders went out to remove page 3/4 also 17/18 which had the units on.... He did, however but threw the rest of the Soldbuch away and kept his units page! lol

It's a long time since I really looked into this book but you could be correct that it was Panzergrenadier-Brigade 92. The location seem to be correct!

Will have another dig around through my research.

/Ian

[Archi]

Hi Ian !

Thanks for the explanation of the missing pages.
Very funny story !

Cheers,
Archi

[mufasa]

I re-read Archie your interesting information H.Pz.AA. 400 (in particular on the Unit staff) ...... on the book by Guglielmi there are very accurate data on the supplies of the Italian armoured veichles in 1944/1945 that confirm your information ....
in December 1944 the H.Pz.A.A. 400 depended form 14 Armee. The 1st Squadron, judged ready for use, had nr. 19 AB43 (including nr. 2 delivered the same month). Then receives exactly nr. 6 AB43 in February 15, 1945 (at the same time the MG Battalion Kesserling 1) receves other nr. 6 AB43) and other nr. 6 March 15, 1945 (and again nr. 6 to the MG Btl Kesserling 1)...

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

All simply WONDERFUL!

[mufasa]

All simply WONDERFUL!

many thanks Tora_Tora_Tora !!

ciao Oriano

[Admiraal]

I just got a Soldbuch to the Oberbeck unit as well.
On page 17 it says "3./Einheit Oberbeck". While on his releasepapers it says Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 192.
He received his releasepapers at Ebersberg, next to München on 12 June 1945.

Panzer-Grenadier-Brigade 92:
According to the Panzerarchiv forum this Brigade received Panzer-Späh-Kompanie Haberland on 10 january 1945. It was renamed to Panzer-Späh-Kompanie 192
but on 18 January this Kompanie was renamed back to Haberland, removed from the Brigade and incorparated into Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung Hirschberg.
This Hirschberg unit was incorparated into Stab./Panzer-Brigade 103. So for the time being, no Aufklarungs unit was attached to the Brigade.
On 22 April 1945 the order came that "Einheit Oberbeck" was to be attached to the Brigade. So around this day the name Overbeck must have been changed to 192.

What the Overbeck unit did before being attached to the Brigade is unknown to me.

[Ludwig]

Very interesting thread!

[mufasa]

Very interesting thread!

thanks!

[mufasa]

and a few dozen of AB41 and AB43 (distribuited in the various Reconoissance Units of th 71, 44, 278 and 162 Diivisions) have passed through the "Rimini Stellung".....

but here's one very recently .... last year, at a shows of military vehicles of the WWII, we are in San Marino Republic, the little airport (ultralight aircrarft) of Torraccia.....