e-stand :Wehrpass for Panzergefreiter (1./Pz.Abt.506)

[Eric JB]

Gentlemen,

Am I the only one who isn't that happy with the PKA in silver entry.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=757033

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Nordfront]

Well, I bought it from e-stand around three years ago from a respected WAF member and nobody was unhappy about it then.

[Lionel H.]

Hi Eric and Nordfront. Handwriting seems modern, but without obvious Errors. Signature is not very convincing, that for sure. The stamp "Oberleutnant....." is IMO an original one, and I would say, the Ink used is faded as we like. A Unit Stamp or FpNr. would have been a big Help, but the Lack of Stamp - here not a good sign - is definitively not the Clu. There are a lot of excellent Entries in SB's without Stamps, even if us Collectors always wish there is one. To be honest, I would not buy it, BUT it would need to have it at Hand to have a formal Opinion. The question is always the same.. Does anybody have a "Stellenbesetzung" from this Unit to check the existence of this first-Lieutenant ? Lionel.

[Hank C.]

First, 2 things:

1. This is my opinion
2. I'm no expert

So - I'll say I don't like it for the following reasons:

1. The writing does appear modern to me too
2. The signature is not only unreadable, but there's really not a single written stroke there that looks like a letter. I know, some people have crummy signatures, but that thing is just out there. (It appears it might be "Holz", but it's not a very good one)
3. I don't like the way the date is crammed in there. It's very odd. Not impossible, of course, but certainly not normal.
4. It appears to be dated for when he was still with 7./Pz Rgt 33, but (as stated above), why no unit stamp?
5. Finally, I'm not sure what the awarding location is supposed to be. I see "Rgt" for regiment, but what's after it, and what does it mean? Usually it's something like "Rgt Gef Std" or similar. This looks like "Rgt Sct Bef". I'm not sure what that means.... (I also don't like the smudging at the end, that really doesn't occur a whole bunch either - but it's kind of the least of the questions here)

Again - just my impression. The rest of the book looks fine, but that one entry does raise questions. I'm not sure how much "extra" value it would add to the book, but it should be considered.

best,
Hank

[Nordfront]

I appreciate all the educated comments regarding signature, etc.

There is just one fundamental issue that nobody has raised in this thread. Schnallinger spent atleast 10 months in a front line unit in the Eastern Front... What did he do there during all that time if he didn't manage to be a part of three tank related actions in order to earn PAB? How did he manage to avoid all that action that 33 Pz. Regiment/ 9. Pz Division was thrown into? He was an trained tank gunner after all, not a mechanic.

From Lexikon der Wehrmacht about 9. Pz. Division which 33 Pz. Regiment belonged to during Schnallingers service in the Eastern Front:

"Die Front um Schtschigry wurde bis ins Frühjahr 1942 gehalten. Erst ab dem 28. Juni 1942 wurde die Division aus ihren Stellungen heraus wieder zur Offensive eingesetzt. Sie überschritt den Tim und marschierte bis zur Kobylia Ssnowa. Am 6. Juli musste die Division zur Flankensicherung nach Norden eindrehen und auf Ssemljansk vorgehen. Hier kommt es zu schweren Kämpfen mit russischen Panzerverbänden. Am 4. August wurde die Division aus der Front gezogen, um über Orel im Raum Bolchoff am Unternehmen "Wirbelwind", dem Vorstoß auf Ssuchinitschi, teilzunehmen. Um den Shisdra-Abschnitt gab es schwere und verlustreiche Kämpfe. Bis zum 26. August mussten die eigenen Stellungen wieder hinter die Shisdra zurück genommen werden. Ab dem 9. September wurde die Division aus der Front gezogen und als Armee-Reserve der 9. Armee im Raum Gshatsk zugeteilt. Bis zum 29. September erreichte die Division den Raum Ssytschewka. Nach dem Beginn der russischen Offensive in diesem Raum wurde die Division ab dem 25. November 1942 an die Front an der Wasusa geworfen, um bis zum 30. September die Bahnlinie Wjasma - Rshew südlich von Loshki wieder freizukämpfen. Mitte Dezember wurde die Division in den Frontabschnitt zwischen Saizewo und Panowo in der Nordfront bei Rshew verlegt. Ende Februar wurde sie dann beschleunigt in den Raum nördlich von Shisdra verlegt, wo es den ganzen März 1943 zu schweren Abwehrkämpfen kam"

[Eric JB]

There is just one fundamental issue that nobody has raised in this thread.

Hi NF,

Wrong point you made here, but still a nice unit history you show us.

Your :

"There is just one fundamental issue that nobody has raised in this thread"

Is really not applicable here, and has absolutely nothing to do with the PKA entry.

It is ALL about the PKA entry itself, and not if your man was entitled to it or not.

In my humble opinion the PKA entry itself in your Wehrpaß doesn't look as if it was done during the war, but between the end of world war two and the time you bought it.

The handwriting, the dating, the signature - it just shows problems.
Rank stamp seems to be a good one, but not a problem to get as they are available on the todays market.

I did contact you by email but no reply.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

ps.
To your "fundamental issue" I did have several booklets that didn't show the awards the men were entitled to ..... up to DKiG and RK.
And here on WAF we have seen booklets were the men were officially entitled to the awards but that the entries were done a long time after the war.
And besides that a lot of booklets with bad award entries were shown here on the forum and the e-stand.

[Lionel H.]

Rank stamp seems to be a good one, but not a problem to get as they are available on the todays market.

Never seen.... Are you sure ? If yes, then, really well done.

[Eric JB]

Hehehehehe, Yes I am sure Lionel.
And I thought that you as an old paper collector yourself would have known better what was going on in our hobby.

Originals do still show up.
One of the WAF sponsors does have three originals listed.
- "Hauptmann u. Abt. Kommandeur"
- "Hauptmann (W) u. Chef der Kraftfahr-u. Gerätebatterie"
- "III./A.L.R.(mot) 2"
35 Euro each .....

And of course there are stamps available copied from the originals........as shown here.
http://blog.intrenches.com/#home
http://www.intrenches.com/stamps.htm
A complete rubber stamp sheet for only US $ 49.

And all the rubbish stamps that are for sale on Ebay, Epier, Hood, Militaria321, our own e-stand etc.

So a faker doesn't have to invest a lot of money, he only has to find someone with the right ink and writing style.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Eric JB]

As a reference for this thread.

[Hank C.]

As a reference for this thread.

I'd still like somebody to explain what "Rgt Sct Bef" means....or what it actually says, if I'm reading it wrong.

Hank

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

I'd still like somebody to explain what "Rgt Sct Bef" means....or what it actually says, if I'm reading it wrong.

Hank

Regiment (?????) Beförderung ?

[JBGracing]

I believe it to be Rgt St Bef=Regiment Stabsbefehl.


I think the thing that looks like a "c" is the beginning of the "t".

Jared

[Nordfront]

Hi NF,

Wrong point you made here, but still a nice unit history you show us.

Your :

"There is just one fundamental issue that nobody has raised in this thread"

Is really not applicable here, and has absolutely nothing to do with the PKA entry.

It is ALL about the PKA entry itself, and not if your man was entitled to it or not.

In my humble opinion the PKA entry itself in your Wehrpaß doesn't look as if it was done during the war, but between the end of world war two and the time you bought it.

The handwriting, the dating, the signature - it just shows problems.
Rank stamp seems to be a good one, but not a problem to get as they are available on the todays market.

I did contact you by email but no reply.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

ps.
To your "fundamental issue" I did have several booklets that didn't show the awards the men were entitled to ..... up to DKiG and RK.
And here on WAF we have seen booklets were the men were officially entitled to the awards but that the entries were done a long time after the war.
And besides that a lot of booklets with bad award entries were shown here on the forum and the e-stand.

It is a matter of humble opinions then I guess... I haven't received any e-mails from you, maybe the one in the record is old. I will send you a PM.

Regards,

Risto

[Eric JB]

There is too much going on in that handwritten entry.

The difference in the letter font that is used here.

See the :

- z in Pz and in Abz.
- f in Kpf and in Bef.
- s in Silber and in Sct.
- t in Rgt and in Sct.

I think that the writer did make an error while writing the S, tried to write the same S used for Silber again but ended up with a Sc.

I am with Jared on the Regiment Stabsbefehl, but do have a problem with the abbreviation that is used in this Wehrpaß.

In my humble opinion it is a forced handwriting that we see here.

Yes Risto, it is my humble opinion, I do know that you have your own opinion that differs very much from the ones that I have.

[Nordfront]

Not necessarily, since I am not that stubborn. I see your point(s) and yes they seem to be valid.

Since I am just a normal person and actually try or tried to sell that Wehrpass, of course I don't like to hear that there suddenly is a problem with it and just accept that without any hesitation or argument.