My ORIGINAL SS ID,,,and warrelics forum!!

[maximus999]

Amazing ideas

[Lasse L]

I believe I remember seeing a casuality list from Division "Nordland" (which ofcourse included the dog tag numbers and inscriptions) which featured a tag with SS-Pz-Gren-Ausb.u.Erz-Abt 111. Ofcourse no such unit existed, why either it would be a misstake in the casuality list (which often occured) or simply that the tag by some reason was stamped with three 1:s instead of just two.

[Simon O.]

As long as no one is trying to sell it, there isn't a problem. What is needed is more research.

A word on Tessin, it is not 100% accurate and not 100% complete.

To use an old researchers quote. " Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

And another thing, many times we have joked about the reaction we would get in the collecting community about stuff we have found. I know very well there are things out there which do not appear in any book.

[soldon]

The thread title "My Original SS ID and Warrelics" - well the war relics forum have a specialist dog-tag section with some fairly competent people running it. I looked this dog-tag up, it was resolutely given the thumbs down. On this thread after 34 posts, no one has come out and said, I stand behind this dog-tag, except of course, the owner Maximus. Future research may uncover some evidence or it may never come, regardless of how much research is done. At this moment in time, due to the lack of any evidence, the only reasonable judgement must be again the dog-tag.

[Simon O.]

Just because it's wrong (and Fronti is quite right about abteilung vs. bataillon) does not mean to say it is fake or hasn't been in the ground since 1945, the clue may be in all the non-German items found with it and someone completely messing up.

[Jean-Loup]

The patina on the items sure looks authentic. However I think you are cleaning the items too agressively Maximus.
Regarding the unit not existing, perhaps there is a mistake on the tag, or perhaps this is some unit created at the last minut in the Balkans?
Below is an ID tag I have, that has one number missing on the lower half.

[christof]

Jean Loup, not a late minute unit because Abt. is not possible for a infantrie unit.

[maximus999]

Just because it's wrong (and Fronti is quite right about abteilung vs. bataillon) does not mean to say it is fake or hasn't been in the ground since 1945, the clue may be in all the non-German items found with it and someone completely messing up.

Thank God for smart professionals on forum!

100% was found in the ground and in addition to other military stuff that I've posted here!

[codytrcollector]

Thank God for smart professionals on forum!

100% was found in the ground and in addition to other military stuff that I've posted here!

What you really mean is, "thank god I finally found someone who will agree with my opinion". The WRF possesses some of the leading "professionals" in their respected field. Coming here and lobbying against them just because they didn't agree with you is outlandish and plain childish.
That said, my personal opinion is there are two plausible possibilities:
A) Someone, and not necessarily you, put a real disk with modern additions into the ground in order to age it and make it appear as if it was a original ground dug example. Why you ask, because many novice collectors will base the authenticity of a item solely upon it coming out of the ground and it's worn appearance.
**I will admit however, it's a little hard pressed to believe someone did it, as stated over there, so that another collector would discover it and vent it to the community, especially considering not every person who metal detects is a member of these fora.**
-or-
B) This is indeed an original example and either a critical error was made when this badge was produced or the unit did exist (which doesn't make any sense to me) and there just hasn't been any documentation as of yet to be uncovered.
Either way, anyone who comprehends the structure of the Third Reich's armed forces will be wary of this tag; this has absolutely nothing to do with you or one being "professional" and it's certainly not because "they" are being ornery or antagonistic towards you. Logically speaking, all collectors should understand that with all the reproductions and fabricated items in this hobby, we most be overly cautious at all times. I truly do hope you find evidence of the existence of this example and I'm quite sure everyone over at the WRF does too.

[blinky]

This is far outside my scope of knowledge (or interest) but could it be possible that this tag was meant to deceive not a modern collector but the Soviets back in WWII? Would it be uncommon to scatter disinformation in an attempt to throw off the enemy? Stamp out a few hundred ID tags for a unit that doesn't exist and perhaps the Soviets think they are facing a new unit rather than a group of reservists? I know the Americans and British were very good at this sort of thing, it would seem like a pretty simple and cheap way to spread disinformation.

[Lionel H.]

This is far outside my scope of knowledge (or interest) but could it be possible that this tag was meant to deceive not a modern collector but the Soviets back in WWII? Would it be uncommon to scatter disinformation in an attempt to throw off the enemy? Stamp out a few hundred ID tags for a unit that doesn't exist and perhaps the Soviets think they are facing a new unit rather than a group of reservists? I know the Americans and British were very good at this sort of thing, it would seem like a pretty simple and cheap way to spread disinformation.

I never read that something like that happened, but well, thank you for the Suggestion. I mean it was some more modern Ways at this time to "deceipt' the Enemy.

Soldon and codytrcollector are completely right IMO. Concerning what Simon Says, perhaps Tessin is not 100% accurate and complete, but the 20 Volumes I have at own are the best source ever for documents collectors and Historians. Nothing on this World is definitely complete, and all has not been discovered in WWII militaria, I agree. But concerning regular Units (Im am not talking about "Kampfgruppen", which is completely different and where a lot of Things remains to discover), I have a religion : everything which is not related in those Books is suspect to me. Especially in Dog Tag Matters !! Strangely, these kind of "one of a kind markings § units " appears mostly on dog tags, and not in Soldbooks.
I have congratulated Maximus for his other Finds. I don't know how this Garbage landed under his metaldetector but all the elaborated theories about it won't change the very simple truth : A faker has made this Dog Tag, without historical knowledge, and even without the proper Stamping material.... It was done to fool anybody, but on this forum, and on the other one you mentioned. It has perhaps just been made to fool Maximus himself. The "World of detecting" is a small World were jalousy and envy may have some conséequences...
Perhaps/probably there is in Slovenija, dear Maximus, someone you probably know and who don't believe his Eyes that the Garbage he made with an original Virgin dog tag is making so much noise within the Collector Community...

[Simon O.]

Concerning what Simon Says, perhaps Tessin is not 100% accurate and complete, but the 20 Volumes I have at own are the best source ever for documents collectors and Historians.

They used to be certainly and still are amongst published works, but to be honest it's not often i use them anymore. The lexikon covers most of what the series does and Tessin has one huge hole in it's coverage in that it only goes down to battalion\abteilung sized units. That leaves out the large number of company and smaller sized units.
Thanks to the increasing level of digitization of many archive holdings, the best sources are the original formation gliederungen and these are what i use now days more than anything else.


As, for the tag, it's so wrong that it has no monetary value, but for the finder i hope that doesn't matter. I can well imagine someone only familiar with cyrillic lettering perhaps, and some abbreviations of other units, managing to get this completely wrong. I have the base of a soviet bottle i once dug up on one of my trips with 'made in U22R' on the base, so if a company can screw up something as basic as that, it's not difficult seeing this as a screw up.

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

It seems that the tag of this thread became the main argument in other forums around the world!

Far from my collecting field I continue to ask to myself why create a fake tag with ghost unit.....I don't see any reason!
I hope that a solution will be find due I think is of great interest for all of us.

[Ludwig]

Could it be, that today we do not know everything what went on during the Third Reich era? I mean, the archives, for example, are not complete...

[maximus999]

You all really think I would like the whole world put shame because one EM?
I have my honor and would never faked anything.