Soldbuch/ Wehrpaß Question

[Matt L]

Hey Gary,

One more thing: is it possible you can post the Wehrkries of these ersatz units? I don't mean to be a pain, but it would be most helpful!

Chris

Don't worry about this Gary- I've already looked them up save for the few I asked about

[Matt L]

Whoops! I'm sorry Chris, Gary- I thought Chris was asking about the first list- I don't have any WK information on the units in the second list- so that would be really helpful if you could post it.

Matt

[Gary T]

Don't worry about this Gary- I've already looked them up save for the few I asked about

It is my belief (based on the other replacement units some of these men served with) that the Ers. Kp. were part of the same number Ersatz Regiment. Initially the Ersatz Regiments were deisgned to provide infantry replacements for a specific division i.e.

Inf. Ers. Regt. 9 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 36, 57, 116 all corresponding to their respective infantry regiments.
Inf. Ers. Regt. 216 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 348, 396 and 398.
Inf. Ers. Regt. 267 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 467, 487 and 497.

etc etc

Rather than each battalion having its own specialist IG, AT and signals units these were provided by specialist replacement companies.

This is easy to understand at the start of the war but as Ers. Btl's were moved around between the Ers. Regts it becomes increasingly confusing. where panzer divisonal units Wehrkreis and replacement unit\field unit affiliation is not as strong.

[Chris Stewart]

Would make sense as to why the Inf.ers.Reg units have the same WK as these ers. units, but the bataillons rarely, if ever, correspond.

It is my belief (based on the other replacement units some of these men served with) that the Ers. Kp. were part of the same number Ersatz Regiment. Initially the Ersatz Regiments were deisgned to provide infantry replacements for a specific division i.e.

Inf. Ers. Regt. 9 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 36, 57, 116 all corresponding to their respective infantry regiments.
Inf. Ers. Regt. 216 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 348, 396 and 398.
Inf. Ers. Regt. 267 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 467, 487 and 497.

etc etc

Rather than each battalion having its own specialist IG, AT and signals units these were provided by specialist replacement companies.

This is easy to understand at the start of the war but as Ers. Btl's were moved around between the Ers. Regts it becomes increasingly confusing. where panzer divisonal units Wehrkreis and replacement unit\field unit affiliation is not as strong.

[Matt L]

Inf. Ers. Regt. 9 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 36, 57, 116 all corresponding to their respective infantry regiments.
Inf. Ers. Regt. 216 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 348, 396 and 398.
Inf. Ers. Regt. 267 contained Inf. Ers. Btls 467, 487 and 497.

Did you just work this out, or do you have a reference that tells you this?

[Gary T]

Would make sense as to why the Inf.ers.Reg units have the same WK as these ers. units, but the bataillons rarely, if ever, correspond.

I completely disagree. I find it far more unusual for the batallion not to be in the same WK, certainly until 1942. Usually those replacement battalions not in the same WK are often just over the border in a neighbouring WK.

[Chris Stewart]

I completely disagree. I find it far more unusual for the batallion not to be in the same WK, certainly until 1942. Usually those replacement battalions not in the same WK are often just over the border in a neighbouring WK.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying (correct me if I am wrong).

Before now, I wasn't quite sure what a tag (or unit designation) of Inf.Pz.abw.ers.komp.311 (for instance) referred to. I had assumed it was the 311th infanterie ersatz bataillon. The WK of that Btl does not correspond to what would be posted in the Wehrpass/Soldbuch though, which is why I now agree with you, that this unit designation would be referring to the ersatz regiment, not bataillon. This is mostly because the WK does not match up between this unit (311) and the btl., but it does match up with the reg. WK.

Does that make any sense? heh!

[Matt L]

Well it seems that the majority of Infanterie --- Ersatz Kompanien provided specialist troops to Regimenter within their specific Wehrkreis. There are a few that don't match up, but then given wartime pressures, this isn't at all unexpected. In fact, from the group of examples provided so far, the majority of ones that don't fit the pattern are Infanterie-Nachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanien- which would be the most easily spread around type (virtually every unit had signals personnel). Only one each of the Infanterie-Panzerjäger, Infanterie-Pionier, and Infanterie-Geschütz Ersatz Kompanien went to units other than those in their own Wehrkreis- and the Panzerjäger was an atypical transfer (to Panzer Regiment 203). All the others, even the Infanterie Panzerjäger to Artillerie transfer were within the same Wehrkreis. And, as expected, the Infanterie Ersatz Regiment of the same number as the Infanterie--- Ersatz Kompnaie, existed in the same Wehrkreis- so far, without exception. I'm going to cross-reference the numbers between the different types and see if they also match (I'm expecting them to)...

Matt

[Matt L]

Okay, every number on my Infanterie- Geschütz, -Panzerjäger, -Pionier, and -Nachrichten Ersatz Kompanie lists match one another with respect to Wehrkreis, and sometimes even location as well. This very strongly suggests it's the Infanterie-Ersatz-Regiment number as these also match.

Wow- I think that clears up the question nicely- including a good idea of what field units a particular Infanterie --- Ersatz Kompanie might have supplied- generally an Infanterie/ Grenadier-Regiment within the same Wehrkreis. Unfortunately, it can't be narrowed-down any further without more information (when one's starting place is an Erkennungsmarke, that is).

Thanks guys!! I seemed to have evidence pointing in other directions so I wouldn't have gotten to this conclusion for some time methinks- and certainly without the first field unit information you've provided, I couldn't have really substantiated anything beyond a possibility. When I posted this question last night I SURE didn't expect to have a reasonable conclusion in less than a day.



Matt

[Chris Stewart]

Big thanks Ian and Gary

[Gary T]

fact, from the group of examples provided so far, the majority of ones that don't fit the pattern are Infanterie-Nachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanien- which would be the most easily spread around type (virtually every unit had signals personnel).
Matt

Are you sure about this? Of the twelve I provided 9 went to units within their own wehrkreis - 75% - a pretty good hit rate.

[Matt L]

Are you sure about this? Of the twelve I provided 9 went to units within their own wehrkreis - 75% - a pretty good hit rate.

I found 4- Infanterie-Nachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanie:

5 (WKV) went to Div Btl 268 (WKVII)
20 (WKX) went to GR 12 (WKXI)
26 (WKVI) went to IR 576 (WKV)
130 (WKXVIII) went to IR 434 (WK XI)

But as I said, only one each of the other types- indeed it is an excellent hit rate!

These ones aren't on my lists:

Inf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp. 19
Inf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp. 25
Inf. Gesch. Ers. Kp. 207
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 216
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 227
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 257
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 267

Can you tell me the Wehrkreise of these units?

Thanks

Matt

[Ian Jewison]

I found 4- Infanterie-Nachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanie:

5 (WKV) went to Div Btl 268 (WKVII)
20 (WKX) went to GR 12 (WKXI)
26 (WKVI) went to IR 576 (WKV)
130 (WKXVIII) went to IR 434 (WK XI)

But as I said, only one each of the other types- indeed it is an excellent hit rate!

These ones aren't on my lists:

Inf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp. 19
Inf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp. 25
Inf. Gesch. Ers. Kp. 207
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 216
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 227
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 257
Inf. Nachr. Ers. Kp. 267

Can you tell me the Wehrkreise of these units?

Thanks

Matt

I thought we had sorted this out? Don't get me wrong Matt but you have confirmed you have the sources where we double checked for confirmation.
So with that said:

Inf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp. 19 - Inf.Ers.Rgt. 19 - Hannover, Wehrkreis XI, provided replacements for 19 Inf.Div.
Inf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp. 25 - Inf.Ers.Rgt. 35 - Heilbronn, Wehrkreis V, provided replacements for 35 Inf.Div.

etc.

Bear in mind this is as of 1939 and before any changes such as transfer to new location or Wehrkreis (yes this was done!) and provision of replacements to different Divisions.

Source Tessin

[Matt L]

I thought we had sorted this out? Don't get me wrong Matt but you have confirmed you have the sources where we double checked for confirmation.

Actually Ian, since Gary actually has them, I want to know what the actual documents for these specific units say. When I asked about sources before, I just wanted to know if the information was from a primary source or not. I think it will probably be true that the numbers are going to be the same as the Ersatz-Regimenter, but since these are the ones that aren't on my lists of these specific Ersatz Kompanien, I want to be sure.

I don't mean to be a pain- I just like to be really thorough When I'm not, my theories tend to fall apart spectacularly

Matt

[Ian Jewison]

I think you need to run this for more examples rather than just Ers.Kp....verify if the Ers.Btl. in Wehrkreis X for example actually replinished a unit from that Wehrkreis as well!

The thing with dog tags is that they only give you an idea of the unit on the day of issue....a set issued in 1939 will show his Ersatz Btl. and to which Wehrkreis he was inducted but by 1945 the unit could well have been destroyed, or he ended up in another unit under a different Wehrkreis.......


I wonder if we have the same percentage or not!