116.Pz.Div. Windhund Soldbuch

[Vet44]

Is there a possibility to go back to the family and see if there is any more evidence that he had the awards, perhaps other photos, his pension entitlement/post war records of the awards?

They may have some post war paper that backs it up that they think is not important? Maybe he served in the Bundeswehr etc...

Jock

Will let you know then, but must wait some days.

Andi

[Lionel H.]

At first glance, for sure, this EK.I Entry gives a bad Impression and do not match with any regulations. BUT, after 30 years of collecting Papers, I have seen so many Thinks, that I always try to JUDGE WITH FACTS AND NOT WITH FEELINGS.
Somebody wrote that the Internet Link do not prove anything : Correct !! Somebody else suggested to write the "WASt" to know if this Soldier was awarded E.K.I. Wrong... With some exceptions, the WASt do not have the Elements concerning the Awards received by the Soldiers. I discussed about that for Years with Herrn von Lutzau, which led this Office.

This EK.1 Entry, good or fake, is signed. let's talk about that. That's the only concrete Point we have !!

Signature is easily readable : "Frhr.v.Ketteler". Josef Freiherr von Ketteler was during Normandy Leader from I./156. As an unknow Date, he was transferred to the I./60. He was captured on March.25th 1945 . Infos : "Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen, die Geschichte der 116.Pz.Div", Heinz-Günther Guderian, 1997.
Ketteler was not a well know Officer. Neither KC, nor German Cross or Ehrenblattspange. If this Entry is faked, we will then all agree that he has a really good Knowledge from this Unit.
The next Point is..... compare this Signature with another one... As a Bat.Cder, he probably signed a lot of IAB'S and WB's Awards Doc.... I can not help in this Matter.... but if anybody knows a Specialist from the Windhund, he will perhaps may be helpful...

[Luft 76]

At first glance, for sure, this EK.I Entry gives a bad Impression and do not match with any regulations. BUT, after 30 years of collecting Papers, I have seen so many Thinks, that I always try to JUDGE WITH FACTS AND NOT WITH FEELINGS.
Somebody wrote that the Internet Link do not prove anything : Correct !! Somebody else suggested to write the "WASt" to know if this Soldier was awarded E.K.I. Wrong... With some exceptions, the WASt do not have the Elements concerning the Awards received by the Soldiers. I discussed about that for Years with Herrn von Lutzau, which led this Office.

This EK.1 Entry, good or fake, is signed. let's talk about that. That's the only concrete Point we have !!

Signature is easily readable : "Frhr.v.Ketteler". Josef Freiherr von Ketteler was during Normandy Leader from I./156. As an unknow Date, he was transferred to the I./60. He was captured on March.25th 1945 . Infos : "Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen, die Geschichte der 116.Pz.Div", Heinz-Günther Guderian, 1997.
Ketteler was not a well know Officer. Neither KC, nor German Cross or Ehrenblattspange. If this Entry is faked, we will then all agree that he has a really good Knowledge from this Unit.
The next Point is..... compare this Signature with another one... As a Bat.Cder, he probably signed a lot of IAB'S and WB's Awards Doc.... I can not help in this Matter.... but if anybody knows a Specialist from the Windhund, he will perhaps may be helpful...

Very true, Lionel ! Excellent addition for this interessant "discution".

[Jock Auld]

708 V.G.D.,

Have you any thoughts on the signature at the bottom of Page 14?

What is that entry for specifically, I see the one above for soap but I can't work that one out, is it just his joining and stamm Nr?

The seal is there with unit stamp 12 days prior to the EK2 entry

The EK2 authorised by Division but signed off and then struck through, to me unreadable but maybe someone else can make out what was wrtten.

Cheers

Jock

[Lionel H.]

Hi Jock. Bottom page 14 is " Kr.St.Nr." (Kriegs-Stamm-Nummer). II/674 : II probably for the II./Bat/ G.R.60, 674 probably it's roster Number within the Unit. It is no an Award, but as you said, Stamm Nr + date of joining the Unit.

Concerning the E.K.II Entry, no problem at all for me with this one.

The only point to discuss in this Book is the E.K.I

For me, by the Way, the most intersting Entry is the small Paper authorizing to wear the Windhund Insignia. Missing/lost in many Soldbuch of the Unit.

But E.K.I or not ist not a "detail"... for determining the whole interest of this Item, we will all agree with that !!

[jmark]

I always try to JUDGE WITH FACTS AND NOT WITH FEELINGS... This EK.1 Entry, good or fake, is signed. let's talk about that. That's the only concrete Point we have !!

Wise words, Lionel.

Hopefully someone can provide an authentic signature for comparison. He [von Ketteler] might have a personnel file at BA-MA or NARA that will contain his signature.

Jason

[christof]

Like Lionel, I dont have any problem with this EK 1 entry. Of course this entry is over written at a strange place but.... It is a proove of nothing. To make a fake entry with von Ketteler as Btl. commandant, the faker must have more than an exellent knowledge of Windhund Division...

The EK 1 entry (november 5 44) is probably for an action during battle in Würselen (end october).

[Lionel H.]

Hi Chris ! I am convinced about E.K.II. Concerning E.K.I, it needs more discussion and to be compared with a Doubt-free Signature from Hptm v. Ketteler. But actually, this signature was for sure not the easier to fake and if it is a Fake, the Fool who damaged this interesting Book to win - perhaps - 150 euros more, was really good informed about the unit and took a disproportional Risk.... because the most stupid Faker knows it is not the right place to correctly enter a further Award....
It also clearly proves that possessing a good Documentation is THE Point, especiallly "Tessin" and Divisional Histories. <p><img src="http://cdn04.trixum.de/upload2/m/U/mUtOb5sWkTHE136800615317P1683.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn04.trixum.de/upload2/a/r/arcUkDYQuZfX136800616945P1683.jpg"></p>

[Vet44]

Hi all,
A great discussion has developed. I especially like that there is always more information. Days before I had ever been to researched to Frhr. von Ketteler signature but without success.
I can only once again to express that this book was never before in a collechtion. It comes directly from the vet family's home. We must see the whole book. All entries regarding the troop units with the entry of the windhund cap badge. Why should the entries of the awards not be real. It would be great for all the doubters if someone could confirm the v.Ketteler signature.

Cheers Andi

[Vet44]

I mean the signatur for the Kriegsverdienstkreuz is from Oberltn. u. Kopmpaniechef Triantaphyllides.
I found this 116.Pz Soldbuch here: //http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494952

Andi

[Lionel H.]

I mean the signatur for the Kriegsverdienstkreuz is from Oberltn. u. Kopmpaniechef Triantaphyllides.
I found this 116.Pz Soldbuch here: //http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494952

Andi

No Way. It is not this Name. Moreover, I am quite sure the first letter is the "v." from "von", this 1st Lieutenant is probably of noble descent.

[Vet44]

Hi Fiends
I thought that you may be interested. The Soldbuch is now available

Cheers Andi


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