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**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-11-2004, 02:55 PM

2nd pic

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Sept 04 HJ Grouping 3.jpg (73.0 KB, 106 views)

**Folkert D.** · 09-11-2004, 03:09 PM

Joseph,

unfortunately I can't read the name but here is what I got so far:

---------------------------------------------------------------

Liebe junge Handballfreunde,

in aller Eile lasse ich Euch die versprochenen 2 Photos zugehen und verbleibe mit freundl. Gruss

...
Mannschaftsbegleiter

Berlin, den 11/7/38

--------------------------------------------------------------

Should I translate it as well?

Hope this helps a bit!

Folkert

**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-11-2004, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Folkert D.

Joseph,

unfortunately I can't read the name but here is what I got so far:

---------------------------------------------------------------

Liebe junge Handballfreunde,

in aller Eile lasse ich Euch die versprochenen 2 Photos zugehen und verbleibe mit freundl. Gruss

...
Mannschaftsbegleiter

Berlin, den 11/7/38

--------------------------------------------------------------

Should I translate it as well?

Hope this helps a bit!

Folkert

Hello Folkert,

Thank you kindly, this is a great help.

I think that I am close;

With love young handball friends, I am in a hurry and will send you the 2 photos and will remain your friend. Crew champion Berlin, 11/7/38

Best,
Joe

**Folkert D.** · 09-11-2004, 03:56 PM

Joe,

sorry for the delay, but I had to look a few things up.

I would say "dear" instead of "with love" which is probably too strong. Also I would like to change the meaning a bit as to my (german) ear it sounds like the notice was sent (?) / delivered along with the two photos mentioned.

Dear young handball friends,

in great haste I'm sending you the 2 promised photos and remain your friend

...
*

Berlin, 11/7/38

* This is where you got me as I have no idea what "Crew Champion" means. Literally "Mannschaftsbegleiter" means something like "team attendant", though this is probably not the correct english term (which I unfortunately cannot find).

Folkert

**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-11-2004, 04:13 PM

Hello Folkert,

I was hoping that you would jump back in, I agree that the sentence structure was a bit off in my translation. Thank you kindly for cleaning it up.

I also was challenged with the crew champion, but, it made sense to me of sorts. I will continue to research that part and see if I can come up with something more concise, but, I think the usage of crew champion works given the rest of the text. I was thinking the term meant more like the English (US) equivilant to captain ? What are your thoughts on that?

Kind Regards,
Joe

**Folkert D.** · 09-11-2004, 04:40 PM

Joe,

glad I could help!

Sorry about the name, though, but unfortunately I'm really bad at reading handwriting (have trouble reading my own mother's) and names usually have that extra bit of flourish to them, just to add something personal.

Just one tiny point: I've been thinking the last minutes over the correct form: Should it be "... I'm sending you" or rather "...I'm sending the promised 2 photos to you ..." ?
I'm very insecure here, but perhaps the second one would be better?

Folkert

**Folkert D.** · 09-11-2004, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Joseph D'Errico

[...]
I also was challenged with the crew champion, but, it made sense to me of sorts. I will continue to research that part and see if I can come up with something more concise, but, I think the usage of crew champion works given the rest of the text. I was thinking the term meant more like the English (US) equivilant to captain ? What are your thoughts on that?

Oops,

didn't refresh to see the edit!

I think it would be best if I try to describe the role of a "Mannschaftsbegleiter" a bit, so that you can make something out of it:

He is no actual member of the playing team nor has he any duties as coach /trainer of it. ... Thinking about it, perhaps something like "Team-Manager" might hit it? (Not in the financial sense, of course.) He is a sort-of "arranger" and "all-around-handy-man" for the team and is probably also responsible for directing other, lesser helpers.

Does this make sense?

Folkert

**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-11-2004, 06:45 PM

Hello Folkert,

I have been mulling over it myself and was thinking somewhat along the same lines,but, given the nature of the event, my first impression was that he was member of the team. The wording suggested that to me, but, what your proposing would also make sense. I was thinking he was a member of the team because of the initial translation I came up with and was stuck on the crew captain as being the head of or leader of the team. Somewhat of a "top player" promising a photo to a fan.

Not being German and just getting somewhat comfortable with my translations is a big disavantage, especially with the personalized use of the language.

The period script always presents issues for me. I have devoted quite a bit of time trying to discern just the characters not to mention the words and then the period style of handwritten pieces. I find it fun and rewarding as well as frustrating. It is very comforting to know people that are willing to help with the Sutterland script as well as just everyday period hand writing.

I have mantained a very good relationship with Bill Bradley, a very good translator of Sutterland script as well as handwritten pieces. Bill is currently translating war diaries from the Eastern front and his works should be published in a year or so. He has been a very good friend as well as very helpful. Ian Jewson is another gracious person that is well versed in reading handwritten pieces and has helped me out on more than one occasion. Boy, the patience and skill is very time consuming to successfully handle the handwritten pieces, but, in contrast very rewarding.

Thank you again for the help, this is part of a very interesting grouping .
Best,
Joe

**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-11-2004, 06:51 PM

I forgot to mention that I also sent this off to Bill and asked him for help with the name as well as if he had any information on SS-Brigadefuhrer Hermann.

I will post whatever else I am able to find out about this piece.

Best,
Joe

**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-11-2004, 07:06 PM

Bill has just gotten back to me with his findings, closer to your interpretations;


Hi Joe,

Never a problem to do these for you! Not real exciting, but here it is:

"Dear young handball friend,

I'll have the two promised photos out to you as soon as possible and remain,
cordially,

Name illegible
Team attendant

Berlin, July 11, 1938

So, this unknown person is as you have suggested a team attendant and not a player. Just a thought, do you think this guy was a friend of Lange ? I only suggest this , because I am thinking the players were hard to gain access to or simply this was the resposibility of the team attendant. I mean the piece is not all that exciting and curiosty and speculation have gotten the best of me.

Kind regards,
Joe

**Folkert D.** · 09-11-2004, 07:57 PM

Hello Joe,

I was just about to sign off (2.30 am here) when I saw your new post.

Your thought got me thinking again: perhaps "Mannschaftsbegleiter X" was some sort of "go-between" between the team and the "outside", someone who was more approachable than the players of the team itself? Perhaps as part of his duties? (Whether official or not!)

One of the problems is that we don't know about a status of a "Mannschaftsbegleiter": Is it just one of many, responsible for the one of the multitude of tasks out there, or is it an official title, something like the "Mannschaftsbegleiter der deutschen Reichs-Handball-Mannschaft" (My guess would lean to something like the second because he signed with it, if it was just a menial job why would he do so?)

Sigh! Oh so many open questions!

Regarding the Sütterlin handwriting: It is really difficult, indeed! Also aggravating is that even a thorough knowledge of it will not guarantee successfull interpretions of writing, because there were still a good number of other (mainly regional) writing styles in existence und being used (and sometimes remnants of these made into it the Sütterlin writings and complicated them even further).

Folkert

P.S. I have to admit I'm kinda curious now regarding the name. I think I have the first four letters as Gerk..., but then I'm failing.

**Folkert D.** · 09-12-2004, 08:21 AM

Hello Joe,

sorry! I just realized that I overlooked your last post with Bill's translation.

It looks like our thoughts on this Mr. Unkown go into the same direction.

Regarding a possible friendship of his with Lange, I am a bit undecided. The one thing I find strange about this, why did Lange keep the note? Certainly not as a memory of the event the invitation on the other side is for, because that was bit out of his league. Or did he regard that combination [or the event itself] as a curiosity piece and therefore kept it? Or did he simply forgot the notice after slipping it into of his documents (or used it as a book.mark)?

Regards,

Folkert

**Joseph D'Errico** · 09-12-2004, 10:08 AM

Hello Folkert,

I think the possibilities are endless, but I have to be honest with you, I was also thinking about the different scenerios as well

. I think that Herr Lange kept the piece pmaybe as you said, just put it away and forgot about it, kind of a reminder that he had two photos coming as well as perhaps he was the kind of person that kept everything.

The grouping that this came out of was almost fully intact from his first days as a DJ until , where he was a leader, up until he was in the Luftschulz, that is where trail ends. Also included in the grouping are many common pieces that you would think would be lost to time. The grouping start off in 1937 up until 1942 then nothing.

Not sure what would of happened to any pieces after the Luftschulz, seems rather odd that the trail would end there and that Lange may not have gone into any branch of the armed forces. I think that the last entry in his Luftschulz I.D. is late 1942, but will have to confirm that. Perhaps he was killed in the while in the Luftschulz ? Although I do not think so, no entriy for that as well as the time frame of events pared with the district he was assigned to.Of course his Wehrpass or SoldBuch could have just been sperated from the grouping, just speculating.

Here is a pic of the grouping.

I will be busy at my restaurant today, but will get back later.

Best,
Joe

Attached Files

Sept 04 HJ Grouping 1.jpg (63.1 KB, 66 views)

**Folkert D.** · 09-12-2004, 11:32 AM

Hello Joe,

out of curiosity: Could you give me his birthdate?

That's really an impressive grouping!

Folkert

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Some hand written translation help needed.

Some hand written translation help needed.

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