I am new to this sub-forum, so please excuse me if this subject has come up before or if my question is "silly." I have been looking at threads and photos of mostly dug helmets in Russia and other battlegrounds. In most cases the photos show any number of whole ID discs, absent any human remains. How did they get to be buried, or underground where they were found. Were they thrown away on purpose or taken off bodies, by Russians after the action, and just discarded? The same question for the half discs, which should have been left with the body or the other half collected by burial details. How did they get there?
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Hi,
In many cases whole units of German forces were ordered to discard their ID discs, and large numbers were either thrown away or buried in holes in the ground.
Similarly, after processing and identifying POWs their tags were also discarded.
Tags are quite fragile and snap easily, hence the half tags found.
I have no doubt that some ground dug tags may have been found with human remains, but I believe many come from the above practice of discarding tags.
Best wishes.
John.
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Thanks for that information, but, again, why would soldiers be ordered to discard their ID discs. At what point would this occur, under what circumstances? As far as POWs are concerned, did the Russians issue their own type of IDs like the German did?Originally posted by feldpost 58 View PostHi,
In many cases whole units of German forces were ordered to discard their ID discs, and large numbers were either thrown away or buried in holes in the ground.
Similarly, after processing and identifying POWs their tags were also discarded.
Tags are quite fragile and snap easily, hence the half tags found.
I have no doubt that some ground dug tags may have been found with human remains, but I believe many come from the above practice of discarding tags.
Best wishes.
John.Comment
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Just an example: if you was a Waffen SS, before falling Pow you tried in any way to hide your real identity
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Ironcrown,
No I do not think so.
The Geneva Convention requires POW's to state their "name, rank, and serial number"
They should not be forced to tell the enemy which regiment they belonged to, or any other information.
German WW2 ID discs are pretty difficult to work out anyway, but many units were ordered to discard them before becoming captives of Soviet forces.
Many collectors think these disks come from disturbed human remains. I think a few do - but most are from units who buried their ID disks in the ground after orders from above.
Best wishes,
John.
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discard
Feldpost 58, could you provide concrete evidence of a unit told to discard their dogtags? The position of the Volksbund Kriegsgraeberfuersorge or German War Graves Commission is that any dug tags 100% destroy the possibility of identification of remains. None of the now deceased German veterans I knew ever threw theirs away willingly or on orders. There have been a few caches of dogtags from a single unit discovered, but it is perhaps wise to err on the side of dug up tags being taken from human remains as is the position of the Volksbund. To trade or buy these supports grave robbing even after the fact.Comment
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I dont have any direct evidence of soldiers being ordered to throw away their tags, but it is a well known fact that large numbers of tags can be found in areas where German soldiers surrendered, often broken in halves, or quarters.
One example of what can be found in a former POW processing area can be seen here: http://sudwall.superforum.fr/t1412-q...ts-de-fouilles
The majority of tags that can be found on the market do not come from bodies, though a small percentage of them obviously do...
JLComment
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They mustn`t tell anything, because the first look of the "war-winners" was the look for a tattoo under the left arm. This was frequently a headshot criterion !Originally posted by feldpost 58 View Post
Out of this reason many Waffen SS soldiers throwed their dogtags away. You can read this in many first-hand reports.
That`s not right !Originally posted by pauke View Post
The official COA of the WASt is, that they will not investigate in duged out dogtags, that were excavated without (!) remaining (human) bones.
Have a look at the official WASt statement:
(This is part of a WASt letter, that I got from them)
Originally posted by pauke View Post
I knew more than thousands veterans that have to throw their dogtags away, before they were leaved out of POW captivity. There are a lot of german eyewitness reports that they have to handover their dogtags, during the releave formality. (especially in the transit-camps and releave-camps [Entlassungslager]) They were not allowed to leave the POW camp with any kind of military clothing, dogtags and awards.
Years ago, there was a big hoard (more than 2000 dogtags) in one bomb crater in a releave site of a releave camp.
See: Sperrgebiet "F" = http://www.r-ehlers.de/kral.html
A personal note:
What would you do after 6 years of fighting, loosing a war, illness, woundings, starvation, homesickness, after ending of war sitting behind barbed wire without some sort of hope?
Your dogtag is the last item, what you will bring back home. After 6 years of fighting the german soldier was sick of all military clothings, awards and so forth. They only want to go home to their families.
I have a personally eyewitness account of a german farmer (at the end of the war, he was a child). In his meadows, there was a POW camp at the end of the war. He said, that you can get what you want, after the last german soldier was gone. The meadows were full of awards, dogtags, rubbish, uniforms, tent squares, and so on. Nobody else wants this stuff after 12 years of militarism and 6 years of war. They wanted to get rid of this stuff. The framers dad only picked up some tent squares for protecting his firewood against the rain. That`s all!
The remaining things, like dogtags and awards were plowed under. This is the stuff what we actually found with our metal detectors.
There never were dead soldiers in this camp. That was only e leaving camp. The soldier had to stay there only for some days up to a few weeks. (...and had to throw their military things away, if they wanted to be releaved out of captivity)
That`s what I want to tell !Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
Best regards, FrontiComment
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THe Geneva convention did not apply on the Ost Front , Russia was never a signatory to it .Originally posted by feldpost 58 View PostIroncrown,
No I do not think so.
The Geneva Convention requires POW's to state their "name, rank, and serial number"
They should not be forced to tell the enemy which regiment they belonged to, or any other information.
German WW2 ID discs are pretty difficult to work out anyway, but many units were ordered to discard them before becoming captives of Soviet forces.
Many collectors think these disks come from disturbed human remains. I think a few do - but most are from units who buried their ID disks in the ground after orders from above.
Best wishes,
John.
As Fronti has explained there are a myriad of reasons why EK were lost or discarded on the Battlefield as well as in the POW camps etc , this includes half discs ,it is not correct to say that a half disc must have been found with any remains.
That said it is of course true that some EK that are subsequently offered for sale will have been found with remains by Black diggers.Comment
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Here are some photos from Holland that another member posted a while back. Sorry, I really dont remember who the original poster was...
The ID tags are clearly found in a POW camp or surrender area, all carefully broken into multiple pieces by their owners.Comment
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HelloOriginally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
I have another eye witness report...
A former german POW under arrest of british forces said, that they have done this (breaking their dogtags into peaces), out of deadly boredom, while sitting behind barbed wire, after the end of the war.
Best regards, FrontiComment
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Hi,
I and several other members on this thread acknowledge that several caches of ID disks have been found over the years, which proves the point that many units discarded their ID disks in one place.
May have been ordered, may have been a spontanious reaction
With regard to Waffen SS tags. I bet they were quicker than most Wehrmacht units (although they wre no better) to discard tags.
On the Eastern Front there appeared to be no rules, and the Waffen SS in most circumstances got exactly what they deserved for their horrible crimes - a bullet.
Which in most cases, is what they richly deserved!
Best wishes,
John.
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I would be interested to know which units were told to do this?Originally posted by feldpost 58 View PostHi,
In many cases whole units of German forces were ordered to discard their ID discs, and large numbers were either thrown away or buried in holes in the ground.
Similarly, after processing and identifying POWs their tags were also discarded.
Tags are quite fragile and snap easily, hence the half tags found.
I have no doubt that some ground dug tags may have been found with human remains, but I believe many come from the above practice of discarding tags.
Best wishes.
John.Comment
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There are no Lists about units. Often it was ordered by platoon leaders, coy leaders, pow guards, or, or, or...Originally posted by Simon H View Post
Last week there was a hoard finding at the Elbe river. About 300 dogtags of 2./San.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt.3
Best regards, FrontiComment
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Hello Fronti,Originally posted by Frontalschaden View PostLast week there was a hoard finding at the Elbe river. About 300 dogtags of 2./San.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt.3
Best regards, Fronti
I wonder if one explanation for such an act could be that this showed a very visual breaking the oath of allegiance to Hitler at the wars end?
Kind Regards,
Simon.Comment
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