Interesting New Identity Disc Marking Information

[Matt L]

Hey Guys,

Some friends (fellow Forum member Chris Stewart and others) and I have been working on understanding some of the less-obvious abbreviations and ways of denoting a unit on Erkennungsmarken and I thought I'd share one of the more significant things we've learned:

'Schtz. Ers. Kp xy' (Schützen Ersatz Kompanie) is NOT an independent Schützen (armored infantry- aka Panzergrenadier) Kompanie, but rather simply a replacement rifle company of an Infanterie or Grenadier Ersatz Bataillon or Regiment of the number 'xy'. For example:

'1. Schtz. Ers. Kp. 82' (1. Schützen Ersatz Kompanie 82) is actually properly expanded to be '1. Schützen Ersatz Kompanie, Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon 82', it is NOT the 82nd Schützen replacement company.

What proof do I have you might ask? I had a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence that pointed to this, but the concrete evidence really only surfaced recently. Firstly, in no major reference, such as Tessin, you won't find a Schützen Ersatz Kompanie 82 listed, but most importanly, I, (and Chris actually) have a disc marked with the full, expanded, unit:

'S.E. Kp. Gren. Ers. Btl 18' - Schützen Ersatz Kompanie Grenadier Ersatz Bataillon 18.

The condensed version of this would be 'Schtz. Ers. Kp. 18'. On Erkennungsmarken this condensed version is FAR more common- in fact Chris' and mine are the only two examples I know of. There are others, to be sure, however, no publications (such as Jean Höidal's Erkennungsmarken des zweiten Weltkrieges) or experts on other Fora, seem to recognize this fact. I asked a few experts in Germany and they admitted that it's just not known. Well I believe that the evidence we have shows it quite specifically.

Also, discs marked 'M.G. Ers. Kp.', 'Jnf. Pi. Ers. Kp.', 'Jnf. Pz. Jäg. Ers. Kp.', 'Jnf. Nachr. Ers. Kp.', 'Jnf. Gesch. Ers. Kp.', are all the specialist Kompanien of Infanterie or Grenadier Ersatz Bataillone or Regimenter too. The same reasoning of the 'Schtz. Ers. Kp.' applies, and the proof is similar:

Ther are no listings for these units in Tessin, and I have discs with the expanded markings- for example:

'Jnf. Pz. Abw. Kp. J.R. 213' - condensed, and infinitely more commonly, would be 'Jnf. Pz. Abw. Kp. 213'. 'M.G. Ers. Kp. 4/39' is another proof- it reads fully 'MG Ersatz Kompanie 4, Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon (or Regiment) 39. The '4' seems almost redundant because in an Infanterie Regiment, the MG Kompanien were only 4., 8., and 12.- but I've never seen an Ersatz Kompanie example marked either '8' or '12' (although they could simply be very rare).

Oh, and btw, 'Jnf' is 'Infanterie'- old German script writes a capitol 'I' like a capitol 'J' so the 'J' stamp was often used as an 'I'. Unfortunately, it often leads to people thinking that 'J.R.' is 'Jäger Regiment', when it's simply 'Infanterie Regiment'.

Matt

[Chris Stewart]

In fact Matt, I have several examples of these Schützen marked Infanterie kompanie disc - a couple new ones off some fellow forum members and others which I had assumed were REAL Schützen units (i.e. pre-Pz.Gren units or armoured infantry).

[Matt L]

Aha! Further proof that discs marked 'Jnf. Gesch. Ers. Kp. xxx' (Infanterie Geschütz Erstaz Kompanie xxx) or variants (J.G. Ers. Kp., Jnf. G. Ers. Kp, etc.) are not independent Kompanien, but specialist replacement Kompanien of Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon xxx or Infanterie Regiment xxx:

I just bought a disc marked '13. Jnf. G. Ers. Komp. 227'. The 13. Kompanie of an Infanterie Regiment was the Infanterie Geschütz Kompanie, so this disc demonstrates that it is in fact '13. Infanterie Geschütz Ersatz Kompanie, Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon (or Infanterie Regiment) 227'. It can therefore inferred that discs that lack the '13' are still the same. It can further be inferred that any disc marked 'Jnf' and then a specialist Kompanie (Pionier, Nachrichten, etc.) is specifically that of the Infanterie Ersatz Bataillone or Infanterie Regiment of the number marked.

Matt

[Chris Stewart]

May I also note, any Schützen tag I have that follows the guidelines Matt shares above are all labeled to a kompanie that would have been an rifle kompanie (ie. always 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,10,11), never a MG, anti-tank etc. kompanie.

Interestingly enough, I have never seen a MG kompanie disc labeled in the same fashion. While they often have stampings of MG, they always seem to have regiment or battalion level information on them as well that is labeled as such. I'm not saying those don't exist, I just have never seen one.

[Chris Stewart]

Seems we are the only ones interested in the thread Matt!

Anyway, came across an interesting tidbit of info.

While doing a bit of research on the follow tags (1.Schtz.Ers.Kp.62, 1.SCHTZ.ERS.KOM.106 and 2.Sch.Ers.Kp.73) I found some things that both further support what we said and destroy it!

1.Schtz.Ers.Kp.62 sent replacements to Infanterie Regiments 62,541 and 542. Obviously this was a typical infanterie unit, not armoured Inf.

1.SCHTZ.ERS.KOM.106 sent replacements to Infanterie Regiments 106,768 and 769. Again, this is a normal Grenadier unit, not armoured Inf.

2.Sch.Ers.Kp.73 did not supply Grenadier units though. Even though it is labeled the same. It supplied Panzer-Grenadier Regiments 73 and 74. In this case, it really was a Schützen unit in the sense of being Armoured Infantry.

So much for being able to tell from the stamping...

It does however still stand that these units were not independant units. Luckily Pz.gren replacement units and normal Grenadier replacements units are numbered sequentially and can therefore not be mixed up when researching them.

Maybe this sheds a bit of light on things? Maybe everyone already knew that, and I apologize if that is the case

[Chris Stewart]

Quick note:

It would seem that Panzer-Grenadier Regiments 73 and 74 only became armoured Infantry in 1940, so if this tag was issued before that, this information is nothing but coincidence.

If only zinc could speak!

[Matt L]

Well that's a hard one Chris- because you see there was in fact an Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon 73, but only up until 1.12.1940 when it was renumbered 588. I presume you're going by the list in The Replacement Army, which doesn't include it. Indeed there was also a Schützen Ersatz Bataillon 73, however, given the evidence we have, I'd say that a disc marked 'Schtz. Ers. Kp. 73' was simply issued to a soldier of IEB 73 before 1.12.1940. It would seem too likely that identifications could be confused if the marking 'Schtz. Ers. Kp.' could mean both Infanterie/Grenadier AND Schützen/Panzergrenadier. A disc marked 'Sch. Ers. Kp. xy' where there NEVER was an Infanterie/Grenadier Ersatz Bataillon xy would certainly lay the matter to rest, but until I see one, I'd say that only discs specifically marked Schützen Ersatz Bataillon were.

Matt

[Chris Stewart]

Ya, I noticed that as well. However, I don't think there could be any confusion with Ersatz units (at least not from looking at the Replacement Army) as there are no overlapping unit numbers (at least at the battalion level) between pz.gr and inf. units.

[Matt L]

Sure there are- this 73 is one example. There is also, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13 at least. There were both Infanterie/Grenadier and Schützen/Panzergrenadier Ersatz Bataillone with these numbers. And those are just the ones listed in The Replacement Army (an obviously incomplete list).

Every other disc I have in my collection that's marked to a Schützen Kompanie, is of a number that was ONLY an Infanterie/Grenadier Ersatz Bataillon.

Matt

[Chris Stewart]

Yikes, I was so wrong it isn't even funny. All it took was a second glance for me to realize this!

Sorry bout' that...serves anyone right for believing anything I post anyway haha!!