Soldbuch to Michael Wieland, s.Pz.Abt.504, Pz.Abt.115, KIA in Holland 1944

[Bobbe]

Nice and interesting thread.
When reading I noticed that the name sounded formiliar, and I had read something about it before.

Detailed information on Michael Wieland and his death was researched and published on a dutch website:
http://www.oorlogsslachtoffers.nl/de...chael-wieland/

Cheers,
Ray

Wow, That's some interesting information XRAYX. So actually the mystery around Wieland's death, was already solved in the begin of 2012 by these guys. These guys sure did their research and solved the mystery around his death. Very nice tribute to Wieland. Thanks for sharing it

Best regards,
Roberto

[Panzer Rob]

Well, well, well..... Apparently I wasn't the only one researching Michael Wieland in the beginning of 2012


As Roberto has said, Very, very interesting Ray, thanks very much for posting.

According to the information on that site, Michael Wieland was KIA on 31.October 1944 - confirmed by an official document prepared by the Kompanieführer of the Stabskompanie/Pz.Abt.115 - and not on 1.November as stated on his death cards. Also identified is the location of his death, Liessel, confirmed by the same wartime document and Friedhof St. Hubert.

In addition to that I find the entries from the unit's Kriegstagebuch on 31.October to be extremely interesting, and it's great to be able to add this to my archive on Wieland, not to mention those two uniform photos of Michael which are just outstanding and completely new to me!

So, it has finally been established that the date of Michael's death was 31.October and that he died in Liessel. I think it's safe to say "case closed"

Wow, That's some interesting information XRAYX. So actually the mystery around Wieland's death, was already solved in the begin of 2012 by these guys. These guys sure did their research and solved the mystery around his death. Very nice tribute to Wieland. Thanks for sharing it

Best regards,
Roberto

Yes Roberto, they sure did do their homework, and the information on that site demonstrates the difference between an amateur researcher such as myself and the true professionals like Erwin and Richard; I admire their ability to do what I clearly could not. I did the best I could given what time and resources I had at my disposal, but obviously these guys had a much more extensive toolbox to pull from - for example the ability to comb through multiple European archives as well as the information contained within their own, and the document from the Kompanieführer of the Stabskompanie/Pz.Abt.115 which states the actual date of Wieland's death - not to mention more motivation and ambition than I.

And, from the photo montage at the bottom of the link it would appear as though they were also able to track down what looks to be Michael's Wehrpass... although I am a bit puzzled by the fact that the photo montage has changed since the first day Ray posted the link

The original photo showed what looked like a page from a Wehrpass, but less than 24 hours later the image had been modified; the Wehrpass page was removed and replaced with one of Michael's death cards. I have a PDF I made showing the original image which I could show to compare with the current one, but I'm afraid to post it out of fear that someone may cry "copyright infringement" for posting an image that is in their collection, so you'll just have to take my word for it

In my correspondence with Michael's nephew I asked if he or the family had any other items of Micheal's - photos, IDs, uniforms, written stories, etc. - and was told no. It's possible Erwin and Richard were in touch with another member of the family who has his WP or perhaps found scans of it in one of the archives they referenced, or of course it could be a photo from another ID and just a page from a random Wehrpass that was replaced with the death card... Perhaps Erwin can fill us in on all the details

Best,
Rob

[Bobbe]

Yes Roberto, they sure did do their homework, and the information on that site demonstrates the difference between an amateur researcher such as myself and the true professionals like Erwin and Richard; I admire their ability to do what I clearly could not. I did the best I could given what time and resources I had at my disposal, but obviously these guys had a much more extensive toolbox to pull from - for example the ability to comb through multiple European archives as well as the information contained within their own, and the document from the Kompanieführer of the Stabskompanie/Pz.Abt.115 which states the actual date of Wieland's death - not to mention more motivation and ambition than I.

And, from the photo montage at the bottom of the link it would appear as though they were also able to track down what looks to be Michael's Wehrpass... although I am a bit puzzled by the fact that the photo montage has changed since the first day Ray posted the link

The original photo showed what looked like a page from a Wehrpass, but less than 24 hours later the image had been modified; the Wehrpass page was removed and replaced with one of Michael's death cards. I have a PDF I made showing the original image which I could show to compare with the current one, but I'm afraid to post it out of fear that someone may cry "copyright infringement" for posting an image that is in their collection, so you'll just have to take my word for it

In my correspondence with Michael's nephew I asked if he or the family had any other items of Micheal's - photos, IDs, uniforms, written stories, etc. - and was told no. It's possible Erwin and Richard were in touch with another member of the family who has his WP or perhaps found scans of it in one of the archives they referenced, or of course it could be a photo from another ID and just a page from a random Wehrpass that was replaced with the death card... Perhaps Erwin can fill us in on all the details

Best,
Rob

Hi Rob,

all researches and work done to add information and able to give new "life" to these pieces of histories is well done and accept.
I have seen great works done by many collectors in this forum. So many compliments to each has the "courage" to post his researches.
About me I have much to learn from these collectors seeing their posts.

For other details I don't know...I read what you say... maybe someone will can add other about your post.

Thanks to all!

Best regards,
Roberto

[RJC Schoutissen]

Please apologize my English.

Hello everyone!

Due to a automated notification that one of my pages got linked from this thread, I got interested to register to join the community within this great forum.

Thank you for your kind compliments regarding our work, they are much appreciated, you have done a nice job also Panzer Rob!

I am a researcher on German soldiers as citizens, foreign volunteers of the Waffen SS and Dutch political delinquents registered KIA or MIA in the Netherlands. In addition I created a website dedicated to all victims from and in the municipality of Deurne (the Netherlands).

It was in the beginning of 2012 that Erwin contacted me about Unteroffizier Michael Wieland, Erwin had 2 death cards from him and told me his interesting theory about the location of Wieland’s grave which he found. Because it had something to do with the village I live in, I decided to help him.

However his theory made sense, some details didn’t match up and so we had to find proof first. Together we started our research and one thing let into another. I advised Erwin to write to Michael’s relatives, it had to be letter not an article, carefully sharing his theory because the relatives still thought Michael was buried in the Netherlands. And also, as you can image, it’s not an easy subject to talk about.

During the research we finally found proof and we confronted the „Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge” with the results of our investigation. Some time later we received a very nice letter from the „Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge” that they compared our results with their files as the files from the „Deutsche Dienstelle” (WASt) and confirmed us, that our thoughts where indeed correct. They immediately changed the information within their database so all information regarding Michael Wieland now appeared correct on the Volksbund website.

I update my site from time to time so you don't have to be puzzled about the photo montage, sometimes I change pictures or I get new / better ones, so it could be that you saw another one, or at any point in the future for that matter.

Regarding to the "copyright infringement”, although there is a copyright sign on my site everyone may use the text and pictures. I gladly share my info with fellow researchers and other interested parties. More private information I keep in my archive and will not be published at all. Sometimes people ask me if i have original documents which i want to sell. However I have a lot of original German documents it's definitely not my intention selling them and obviously do not want to profit from the misery of war and death, so questions like that are very annoying and inappropriate.

I have a question about the Soldbuch perhaps you can answer for me; were can I find a writing in it that he died on 1.November 1944 like you wrote, I would be interested in seeing that.

Best regards,

Richard

[Erwin L]

For those who are interested. I can imagine the amazement by some people..

Several years ago I found a deathcard from Michael Wieland and i got another different example from a good friend of mine. At that time I was always wondering what happened with him. The location of his grave was a complete mystery to me. It was half 2009, that I posted the deathcards in the Holland 1944 thread and it got the attention from several people.

It was around the end of 2011 that i discovered something very interesting. From this moment it all was clear now and it shed a whole new light on this matter. The only problem was, that all the info i had, didn't match with each other. The challenge was to find proof. During a search on the internet i found Richard's website. I contacted Richard in the beginning of 2012.

Richard and I met and I told him my theory about Michael Wielands’s grave location. There was also a track leading to the environment where Richards interest lays so he decided to help me . We decided that we we would do a good and underbuild research instead of a copy/paste research. We started and after some deep digging we found interesting things that substantiated our theory. Some of the people who work in one of the archives we visit were actually amazed with what we were doing. It was very easy for us to visit the archives on our list and Richard was very experienced with this type of research I'm very thankfull that he helped me

Richard advised me to contact the family, which i did. It wasn't an easy job because it could be a sensitive subject. Till my surprise i got a reply. Carefully i shared my story. It was clear to me that they still thought he was buried in Holland. We kept them updated with new things we found. (It could be well that the contact of Rob got his information indirectly from us through another family member). In case his contact is interested in more information, he can always contact one of us. He is always welcome to visit us so we can share our experience with him.

Like Richard told before, the next step was confronting the Volksbund with the results of our research. We got a very nice letter back in which they confirmed that our thoughts and theory were completely correct. This is the reason why the information on the Volksbund about Michael Wieland is nowadays correct. I have attached the letter from the volksbund. Actually I'm a bit suprised that it never had been noticed in those years, although the thread was brought under the attention regularly

We visited his grave on the St-Hubert Friedhof also as a result of our completed research and this was a very special moment. I have attached some pictures from the grave made in 2012.

Last thing. My contact in the family would love to have the soldbuch and fuhrerschein back in the family. Perhaps something worth to think about while you always like to reunite things. I couldn't imagine a better place.


Erwin

[Erwin L]

Here some pictures from the St-Hubert Friedhof

[Erwin L]

The grave from Michael Wieland born on 05-02-1922 in Herrnwahlthann. Gefallen on 31-10-1944 4km southeast of Liessel (Netherlands)

[Erwin L]

small detail. The man in the red rectangle in post 29 is definetely not Michael Wieland but Franz Wieland

Erwin

[Floris]

Some excelent research has been done by Richard and Erwin here.
Must be satisfying to solve this mystery and helping the family.
Great job.

[Eric JB]

Gentlemen,

For the sake of historical research, it is good to know who did all the work and who benefits from it.

Thank you Erwin and Richard for a job well done, Panzerrob you should be very happy with all the research and the information that those two guys did bring up to the surface and that is available to the Wieland Soldbuch that you have in your collection.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Panzer Rob]

Well done Rob,

You have built up a very full picture of the life and service of Herr Wieland, making an already interesting Soldbuch even more so.



Kind Regards,
Simon

Thank you very much Simon and sorry for the late reply



Best,
Rob

[Panzer Rob]

I have a question about the Soldbuch perhaps you can answer for me; were can I find a writing in it that he died on 1.November 1944 like you wrote, I would be interested in seeing that.

Best regards,

Richard

Hello Richard,


I know already told you this via PM but I figured I would reply here as well. I got the date of 1.November 1944 from the death cards; There are no entries anywhere in the Soldbuch pertaining to Michael Wieland's death.

Thanks,
Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Gentlemen,

For the sake of historical research, it is good to know who did all the work and who benefits from it.

Thank you Erwin and Richard for a job well done, Panzerrob you should be very happy with all the research and the information that those two guys did bring up to the surface and that is available to the Wieland Soldbuch that you have in your collection.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

EJ-

Absolutely... make no mistake about it. Knowing the date of Michael Wieland's death is 31.October and not 1.November and being able to confirm the location of his death is great, and I am very excited to be able to add those photos of Michael Wieland to my archive file on him. So yes, I am very happy



Hope you are well, and talk soon.
Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Hello Erwin,

Thanks very much for correcting me on that image of Franz Wieland... Great catch! Your eyes are much better than mine. I'll have to get the mods to fix that for me

Thanks also for sharing the history behind your research project regarding Michael Wieland's death cards. I guess I'll take this opportunity to share that it was all the way back in early 2008 that Henner first shared scans of the Michael Wieland Soldbuch and Führerschein with me at which time he promised me first right of refusal should he ever decide to sell them. He followed through with that promise and sold it to me - if I remember correctly - in late 2011. I started researching the Soldbuch around late 2011/early 2012 (coincidentally right around the same time you contacted Richard to assist you with your research) with my intentions being to document the exploits of Michael Wieland's military career during the war - the battles he fought in, the various units he served with and the units he fought against, the vehicles he crewed, etc. - and then sharing the Soldbuch, Führerschein and the accompanying research with the community here, just as I have done with so many of the other Soldbücher and Wehrpässe in my modest collection of military identification documents.

I'll be the first to admit that my research is far from perfect, which in this particular case I even stated in post #7 - the very same post in which I asked if anyone else might be able to provide more details on Wieland’s death. Based on what you have wrote it sounds as though you guys were close to making the discovery (if you hadn't already done so) regarding the actual date of Michael's death yet around the time I started this thread (or shortly after) yet chose not to share it here which is really quite a shame as it would have really complemented the research and presentation.

I am not a professional researcher, nor have I ever claimed to be one. This is a hobby for me which stems from a life-long interest in WWII history, particularly the fighting in the European theater of operations during 1944 and 1945 - from the allied invasion of Normandy to end of the war in Europe. I find researching the IDs in my collection to be a very educational experience and it's always a pleasure to share that information with others who can appreciate and learn from it just as I have. That said, I just do not have the time nor the resources to scour archives located in my own country - never mind those in other countries and on other continents - so I use what information I have at my disposal; namely the books I have in my personal library, the information I have collected on various American and German units over the years and of course the internet and the assistance of fellow researchers who share the same interests and passion for military history.

Yes Erwin, you are correct. Much of what I presented in this research project has been "copied and pasted" from the various sources I used while researching this Soldbuch. However, just to be clear I have read every word of that text (and much, much more) during my research. Instead of re-wording and attempting to spin it as my own I copy and paste the information, give credit to the real historians responsible for authoring it and use it to help tell the story behind the ID so that anyone interested in reading about the history behind it can do so in one thread, in one spot.

All I had to go on regarding Michael Wieland's death was the information on his death cards which were posted here previously by you, and based on that info I was under the impression that Michael died on 1.November 1944 in/around St.Hubert. My theory was that he was wounded earlier during the fighting and later, on 1.November, died in St. Hubert.

Then last year I was contacted by Michael Wieland's nephew who provided me with high-resolution scans of Michael's death card which had quite a lengthy write-up on Michael and the details surrounding his death and how his body wound up being buried in St. Hubert - this all being completely new to me. So, under the assumption that he died on the date listed on the death cards, the only detail left missing was exactly where he was killed. I think it goes without saying that had I had access to the same document Richard referenced - the document from the Kompanieführer of the Stabskompanie/Pz.Abt.115 - I too would have known that Michael died on 31.October and then, based on the information in post #6, I would have been able to conclude that Michael was in fact killed during the fighting in Liesel, the details of which are listed in that same post. Close but no cigar I guess

When you think about it, the date and location were the only missing components from my research, but thanks to you and Richard we now are able to wrap up the one final detail. Our differences aside you both deserve a lot of credit for identifying the actual date and location, getting the information updated with the German war graves registry and for updating the members of the Wieland family, so thank you.

Last thing. My contact in the family would love to have the soldbuch and fuhrerschein back in the family. Perhaps something worth to think about while you always like to reunite things. I couldn't imagine a better place.
Erwin

I understand and respect the wishes of the members of Michael Wieland's family with whom you have been in contact with. For the record, should I ever at some time in the future decide that it is time to find a new home for the set I will be more than happy to speak directly with them to discuss the details of making that happen. That said, to be perfectly honest this Soldbuch is one of my most favorite IDs in my entire military identity document collection, especially now that the mystery surrounding the date and location of Michael's death has finally been solved thanks to you and so for now more than ever I wish to keep the Soldbuch and Führerschein in my collection.

Best,
Rob

[Stormfighter]

Rob, you did some fabulous research on this Soldbuch. Like you, I don't always get everything right when I post an ID. Sometimes it's just because I don't have the time to commit to making a write-up "perfect." Posting a thread helps us hobby historians improve on our write-ups. Wieland's Soldbuch is in good hands and his family should appreciate that. Over the years, I have visited dozens of families in Germany whose Soldbuch, Wehrpass, documents, etc. I have in my collection. I always found it interesting that they never asked for an item back - they were glad that someone had it who appreciated it and were happy with good copies.

Barry