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**walter1010de** · 01-10-2012, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Simon Orchard View Post

Nice set. I wonder how he felt about being posted to a nice safe unit like panzer abteilung Norwegen.

Interesting that although he was trained on the long barrelled versions of the 7.5cm gun, the unit didn't use any panzers with them, other than a seperate stug kompanie.

The 2 kp. that he was assigned to had 8 Pz.III ausf.N and 5 5cm long barrelled Pz.III

Here's a photo of at least one of the abteilungs four kompanien handing over their panzers to the British. Some of these ended up in Norwegian service after the war.

What a great photo, Simon! Thanks for showing!!!
How Unteroffizier Klotz felt being stationed in France and then, just before the invasion being sent to Norway? Hmmmm, I think he had no choice and maybe he was glad about the fact being sent to Norway till the end of the war ;-)

By the way: What is a "Singeleiterlehrgang" mentioned in the WP?
And: Why did he not get the Africa-cufftitle?

**Edward** · 01-10-2012, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by walter1010de View Post

Unfortunately he did not get the Afrika-cufftitle. Hmm, maybe the forgot him...

Walter, that is the best Pz.Abt. Norwegen related SB/WP set I have seen.

It looks as if he was not possibly with the DAK long enough to qualify for the award of the Armelband-Afrika? I have a similar group to a former DAK soldier who served in Africa for sometime and was transfered back to Germany and then to Russia. Like your man he was awarded the Erinnungsmedaille für den itlienisch-deutschen Feldzug in Afrika, but not the Afrika cuff titile due to lack of qualifying time in North Africa.

Criteria for the award required that personnel:

- serve at least six month in North Africa. Waived if wounded.

- became incpacitated as a result of contracting a tropical disease after
serving in the theatre for three months.

- Killed in action.

Please note a very interesting side bar.

- On July 1, 1943, the Führer decreed that members of "Heeresgruppe Afrika" who had fought in the final phases of the African campaign (from May 6, 1943), are eligible for the "Afrika" camaign
decoration after four months service instead of six.

- Those who fought in the African campaign and were awarded the Iron Cross, German Cross in gold or whose name was added to the Honor Roll, were now entitled to the "Afrika" Armelband
regardless of service time.

- As of October, 31, 1944, no further "Afrika" cuff titles were to be awarded, except in the case of prisoners of war or those missing in aciton...and only then if written requests were filed after their
return.

**Gary T** · 01-10-2012, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Simon Orchard View Post

Nice set. I wonder how he felt about being posted to a nice safe unit like panzer abteilung Norwegen.

Interesting that although he was trained on the long barrelled versions of the 7.5cm gun, the unit didn't use any panzers with them, other than a seperate stug kompanie.

The 2 kp. that he was assigned to had 8 Pz.III ausf.N and 5 5cm long barrelled Pz.III

Here's a photo of at least one of the abteilungs four kompanien handing over their panzers to the British. Some of these ended up in Norwegian service after the war.

Nice photo. Looks like the Pz IIIs have all been field 'zimmerit-ed' which is very unusual. Still, I guess there wasn't much else to do up in Norway for most of that period.

**Edward** · 01-10-2012, 05:31 PM

That is a neat photo Simon. Are those R.A.C. personnel wearing the black berets? Looks like the tank insignia can be seen on the sleeve. Thanks for sharing.

**walter1010de** · 01-10-2012, 05:32 PM

Africa-cufftitle : There was a change in the criteria, the cufftitle could be given to members of Heeresgruppe Afrika after 4 months of service if the soldier took part at the fightings from 06. May 1943 till the end...
(as of 20. May 1943).
I think Uffz. Klotz was forgotten.

Yes, Gary: I think also that those Pz III the PzAbt Norwegen handed over to the British were the best ones in the whole Wehrmacht. They must have been in a superb technical condition!

**Gary T** · 01-10-2012, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Ian Thomson View Post

Nice wehrpass/soldbuch, the 501st Panzer Battalion was integrated into the 7th Panzer Regiment before Tunis, but not your guys unit unfortunately.

Cheers
Ian

Ian,

Are you sure? I'm just looking through Restayn's 10. Panzer Division book and he has two photos of Tigers from 7./ Panzer Regiment 7. He also has two colour plates showing Tigers with 7. Kompanie markings. He says 1./ schw. Pz. Abt. 501 was designated 7./ Pz Regt 7 and 2./ schw. Pz. Abt. 501 became 8./ Pz Regt 7 in early February 1943.

Cheers,
Gary.

PS Also a bonus is the Dieppe connection with this set.

**Edward** · 01-10-2012, 05:34 PM

Correct, and yes that is likely the case. Please see the additional information posted to my initial reply which I also included.

**walter1010de** · 01-10-2012, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Ian,

Are you sure? I'm just looking through Restayn's 10. Panzer Division book and he has two photos of Tigers from 7./ Panzer Regiment 7. He also has two colour plates showing Tigers with 7. Kompanie markings. He says 1./ schw. Pz. Abt. 501 was designated 7./ Pz Regt 7 and 2./ schw. Pz. Abt. 501 became 8./ Pz Regt 7 in early February 1943.

Cheers,
Gary.

PS Also a bonus is the Dieppe connection with this set.

Gary, that takes my breath-is there any possibility that Klotz was part of a Tiger-Crew in Africa?
Dieppe: As far as I know 10. PzDiv was "too late" - the fightings were over when they arrived at the beach.

**Ian Thomson** · 01-10-2012, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Ian,

Are you sure? I'm just looking through Restayn's 10. Panzer Division book and he has two photos of Tigers from 7./ Panzer Regiment 7. He also has two colour plates showing Tigers with 7. Kompanie markings. He says 1./ schw. Pz. Abt. 501 was designated 7./ Pz Regt 7 and 2./ schw. Pz. Abt. 501 became 8./ Pz Regt 7 in early February 1943.

Cheers,
Gary.

PS Also a bonus is the Dieppe connection with this set.

Hi Gary, I`m taking my information from "Nafziger"

quote -

On 26th February 1943 the panzer battalions were authorized to have four medium tank companies, each with 22 Pz IV tanks. The 1/, 2/501st Panzer Battalion was also directed to become the 3/7th Panzer Regiment.

and -

The major change (for Tunis) was the absorption of the 501st Tiger Tank Battalion as the 3/7th Panzer Regiment.

Cheers
Ian

**Gary T** · 01-10-2012, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Ian Thomson View Post

Hi Gary, I`m taking my information from "Nafziger"

quote -

On 26th February 1943 the panzer battalions were authorized to have four medium tank companies, each with 22 Pz IV tanks. The 1/, 2/501st Panzer Battalion was also directed to become the 3/7th Panzer Regiment.

and -

The major change (for Tunis) was the absorption of the 501st Tiger Tank Battalion as the 3/7th Panzer Regiment.

Cheers
Ian

Hi Ian,

I've just cross checked with Tigers in Combat 1 by Schneider and he backs Restayn up. He says 7./ Panzer Regiment 7 had three platoons of five tanks each platoon having a mix of Tigers and Pz IIILs. He even gives the numbering system although he doesn't mention the company HQ.

1 Zug
711 Tiger
712 Tiger
713 Pz III
714 Tiger
715 Pz III

2 Zug
721 Tiger
722 Tiger
713 Pz III
724 Tiger
715 Pz III

3 Zug
731 Tiger
732 Tiger
733 Pz III
734 Pz III
735 Pz III

Cheers,
Gary.

**Gary T** · 01-10-2012, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by walter1010de View Post

Gary, that takes my breath-is there any possibility that Klotz was part of a Tiger-Crew in Africa?
Dieppe: As far as I know 10. PzDiv was "too late" - the fightings were over when they arrived at the beach.

Hi Walter,

Whether he crewed a Tiger I guess we'll never know although I guess logic would say he'd stay on the PzIIIs...but very interesting nonetheless. As for Dieppe, yes you're correct I believe they arrived just as the surrendering started but Restayn's book has quite a few photos of Pz Regt 7and other 10. Panzer Division trying out their weapons on the Churchill's that were captured.

Cheers,
Gary.

**Ian Thomson** · 01-10-2012, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Hi Ian,

I've just cross checked with Tigers in Combat 1 by Schneider and he backs Restayn up. He says 7./ Panzer Regiment 7 had three platoons of five tanks each platoon having a mix of Tigers and Pz IIILs. He even gives the numbering system although he doesn't mention the company HQ.

1 Zug
711 Tiger
712 Tiger
713 Pz III
714 Tiger
715 Pz III

2 Zug
721 Tiger
722 Tiger
713 Pz III
724 Tiger
715 Pz III

3 Zug
731 Tiger
732 Tiger
733 Pz III
734 Pz III
735 Pz III

Cheers,
Gary.

Hi Gary, as has been mentioned before on WAF, with such a huge reference, he`s bound to make mistakes. Wish I had access to your reference library.

Thanks Gary.

Cheers
Ian

**Ian Thomson** · 01-10-2012, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Hi Walter,

Whether he crewed a Tiger I guess we'll never know although I guess logic would say he'd stay on the PzIIIs...but very interesting nonetheless. As for Dieppe, yes you're correct I believe they arrived just as the surrendering started but Restayn's book has quite a few photos of Pz Regt 7and other 10. Panzer Division trying out their weapons on the Churchill's that were captured.

Cheers,
Gary.

Gary, correct me if i`m wrong but I thought that if he`d been a tiger crewman he would have had the " Paderborn" notation somewhere on his soldbuch ?

Cheers
Ian

**walter1010de** · 01-10-2012, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Hi Walter,

Whether he crewed a Tiger I guess we'll never know although I guess logic would say he'd stay on the PzIIIs...but very interesting nonetheless. As for Dieppe, yes you're correct I believe they arrived just as the surrendering started but Restayn's book has quite a few photos of Pz Regt 7and other 10. Panzer Division trying out their weapons on the Churchill's that were captured.

Cheers,
Gary.

Gary,
I also believe that most likely Klotz crewed the Pz III - 501 brought well trained personnel with them to join PzRgt 7, I think.

**Panzer Rob** · 01-10-2012, 08:25 PM

Marc,

That's a very nice set, and congrats on landing it. I know who the former owner was and was hoping he'd contact me if he ever sold it (I had inquired about it on a few occasions!) however I see you were able to work something out with him... Good for you

A really nice portrait photo with the PAB in wear in the Soldbuch.

Simon, that's a great photo!

Here's a thread that might be of some interest to you Marc

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=bardufoss

Rob

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SB and WP to a member of PzRgt 7 and PzAbt NORWEGEN

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