Original issue vs. Zweitschrift Soldbuch/Wehrpaß - Your Thoughts

[InfanterieSammler]

I am curious to hear other members thoughts about owning an original issue Soldbuch or Wehrpaß, as a opposed to a second issue (Zweitschrift).

Recently, I had a dealer who I had offered a very nice 2nd issue Wehrpaß reply to me "a Wehrpass Zweitschrift ist not so hot in Germany". This got me thinking more about this comment and generally, how it applies to our hobby in general.

Is a second issue less interesting or valuable to you guys? Personally, I enjoy both and see strengths/weakness with each. An original issue Soldbuch will have a lot more wear as it was usually carried for a longer period before it had to be replaced. I like the "history" behind such a piece. On the other hand, a 2nd issue Soldbuch generally has nicer look, whether it be more complete entries written in the same hand and often a photo that may have been lacking in the original issue. I once owned a KC group that had both Soldbuch. The first issue was heavily worn and had all entries upto 1943, including the KC entry, however the second issue had a nice clean look, with all entries neatly entered, and it had a nice KC photo. If I had to choose to keep one only, I would have chosen the 2nd issue with KC photo. With regards to an original issue Werhpaß versus a second issue, to me it makes no difference. As long as the entries (units, battles, awards) are all listed and the same, one does not have more importance over another for me. I don't really equate a first issue Wehrpaß that spent longer time with the company train as having more "history."

How do you guys feel?

John<o></o>
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[Daniele C]

I dont care about the wehrpass as it wasnt carried by the soldier either if it was first or second issue,

If the soldbuch is second issue and was carried while he earned some high decoration or partecipated in battles im after then it s fine for me, i dont mind

[Ian Jewison]

It depends on the content....if all the entries and awards were won prior to it being issued then it has a less value to me, especially if all the entries are in the same hand......even if it does have a nice photo!

However, if the majority of the entries and awards were after the date of issue it does not really effect the price...perhaps a little!

Each have their own tastes.......for lesser awards I have very few replacements, for higher awards sometimes you can not be too choosy, but I will not pay the same price for a RKT SB/WP that was issued in 1939 as to a replacement issued in 1944.

With that said, when I started collecting documents they were considerably cheaper and more readily available!!!

/Ian

[InfanterieSammler]

It depends on the content....if all the entries and awards were won prior to it being issued then it has a less value to me, especially if all the entries are in the same hand......even if it does have a nice photo!

However, if the majority of the entries and awards were after the date of issue it does not really effect the price...perhaps a little!

Each have their own tastes.......for lesser awards I have very few replacements, for higher awards sometimes you can not be too choosy, but I will not pay the same price for a RKT SB/WP that was issued in 1939 as to a replacement issued in 1944.

With that said, when I started collecting documents they were considerably cheaper and more readily available!!!

/Ian

Hi Ian,

In a perfect world I would always prefer a first issue Soldbuch, with all entries, etc. However, as you said, with the higher award holder's one can not be too choosy. My favorite Soldbuch in my collection is a second issue with a great KC photo. I don't value it any less because it is a second issue though.

Personally, I find the logic of devaluing or calling a 2nd issue Wehrpaß something less than, hard to understand. What does it matter when we are discussing a Wehrpaß? It's not like a first issue has more "history" - the history behind a Wehrpaß is what is written on the pages. A can see how the logic is applied to a Soldbuch, but extended to a Wehrpaß? Perhaps I'm in the minority on this one...

Best,
John

[InfanterieSammler]

I dont care about the wehrpass as it wasnt carried by the soldier either if it was first or second issue,

This sums up my feelings on the 1st/2nd issue Wehrpaß as well.

John

[Panzer Rob]

please delete.

[Panzer Rob]

As far as Soldbücher are concerned, whether or not it's a replacement isn't 'too' much of an issue for me, so long as the replacement has a very nice photo and a lengthy list of awards, not to mention that the earlier the date of re-issue and the longer they were carried, the better.

I collect Soldbücher (specifically Heer and Waffen SS Infanterie and Panzer, Panzerjäger and StuG units) because they were actually carried by the soldiers in combat. The historical link the books have to the battles these men fought in, the countries and various locations they have been to, the victories, the defeats, the death and the horrors of war they bear witness too (and in the case of AFV unit IDs the vehicles they have been carried in) is what I find most fascinating, so naturally I'd much rather have a original issue book over a replacement. That said, I wouldn't turn down a late-war replacement if it has a killer photo, interesting or desirable units and an impressive list of awards.

Condition really doesn't matter much, in fact I much prefer a worn and tattered Soldbuch over one that is crisp, clean and without much wear. However, missing pages are a huge turnoff! The portrait photo in the Soldbuch is very important to me, and while I'd never turn down a good Soldbuch that never had a photo applied, I typically avoid any Soldbuch that has had its photo removed - unless the book is something very, very special. There are plenty of books out there to choose from and so I strive for the highest quality by buying the best possible combination of units, awards and photo I can find.

I know some guys don't collect Soldbücher that have been denazified and personally I never understood that one, as a few of my nicer books have been neatly denazified. I couldn't imagine passing on any ID simply because it has had its Hakenkreuze covered or removed, but that's just me.

I don't often purchase Wehrpässe because, to be honest, I find most of them rather boring in that they were more just a administrative record of the Soldier's career and the majority of the time they will have a portrait photo of the soldier in civilian clothing, as opposed to Soldbücher which were (depending on the branch of service and MOS of course) usually carried by the soldiers, and if they have a portrait photo in them, nine times out of ten it will show the soldier in military uniform.

That said, when it comes to collecting Wehrpässe I actually prefer replacements over original issues because quite often the photo in the replacement Wehrpass will show the soldier in military uniform. I do have a number of Wehrpässe in my collection, the majority of which are replacements, again mainly because the portrait photo features the soldier in uniform, a few in a black or field gray wrap, but also with interesting and desirable unit and award entries.

I do have a few sets of Soldbücher with both the original issue and Zwitschrift, but from my experiences these sets are extremely difficult to find.

Rob

[InfanterieSammler]

That said, when it comes to collecting Wehrpässe I actually prefer replacements over original issues because quite often the photo in the replacement Wehrpass will show the soldier in military uniform. I do have a number of Wehrpässe in my collection, the majority of which are replacements, again mainly because the portrait photo features the soldier in uniform, a few in a black or field gray wrap, but also with interesting and desirable unit and award entries.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I hadn't thought of the photo angle...good point. For this reason, I would agree too that 2nd issue Wehrpäße can be more interesting.

John

[mufasa]

It 'a very interesting topic.
I collect "Rimini entry" then for the most part I have wehrpass.
I do not care if they are consumed, but not take them if they have missing pages, if you have no picture, or they have the cover with holes or are denazificated.
No problem for duplicates (but I want to pay less unless) and I like the photos in uniform.
For the Soldbuch are the same rules apply, even J accept a clean denazification, so for the same reason I have particularly 2nd issue .....

[bsmith56]

Interesting discussion.

When it comes to a soldbuch I obviously prefer one that is original issue and well filled... But sometimes you don't have a choice. Just because it is a replacement doesn't mean I won't buy it. Units/battles the number 1 thing I look for, so if it's one I am looking for, then I will buy it. I might pay a little less than I would for an original issue, but I'd still go for it. Luckily it seems like a lot of people don't go for replacements too much so I have been able to get some really nice books (with lots of nice history) for much cheaper than a 1st issue. Unfortunately I only started collecting these few years back so it's super tough to even find higher end books that are for sale, and if I do they are priced so high I can't even afford them. In this day and age and my place in the collecting community I can't be very picky!

Now when the picture is missing I probably won't buy it. I shouldn't say I wouldn't, I just haven't come across one where I just can't pass it up based on the units or awards alone. Having the picture removed is no fun at all. If it never had one originally that is fine though. Same with missing pages, although I have a few, but usually I won't go for them unless I can get them for a good deal. If page 1 was missing that would be awful though. That said, I'd usually rather have a 2nd issue complete than a 1st missing tons of stuff!

When it comes to wehrpasses I have little to no interest in them at all. As others have stated they were just desk records. It almost takes away all the personal side of collecting ID's, and that is one of my favorite factors involved with these. Unless it was dirt cheap (or paired with the soldbuch) then I won't go after it. I just haven't warmed up to them at all and I don't see it happening any time soon. It doesn't help that they usually cost close to the same as a soldbuch does. I'd rather save the money for a nice soldbuch.

[CWP]

For me there are many facets to any Wehrpass or Soldbuch. I like the aesthetic quality of the fonts and scripts, the rubber stamps, the ink used. These IDs to me are supremely evocative of Germany in WWII and embody the minutia of the material culture of day to day life, for a German soldier. Any given book can apeal to me for a number of reasons. Particularly beautiful handwriting can be enough to make me want to own something. I collect what I consider to be unusual entries, that is to say interesting issue entries, unique stamps, obscure branches of service and types of units. A book for an older soldier in a security unit that might have no interest to a collector looking for a connection to famous battles and elite units, might be a real treasure for me. There are also specific units that I look for and I am eager to obtain anything from these units, even if the condition is incredibly poor, pages are missing, or the photo has been removed.

I actually like second issue Wehrpaesse. The second and third patterns of Wehrpass appeal to me more than the first pattern with its (to me) ugly eagle. One of the best WP in my collection is a second issue to a soldier whose first book was destroyed at Stalingrad. The fact that it is a Zweitschrift does not bother me in the least.

It seems clear that a replacement issue Soldbuch will not have the same market value as an original issue. There certainly are some who simply will not buy any book if it is a Zweitschrift. To me there is a certain appeal to a nice and clean late-war replacement book with a nice photo. But I would not expect to pay the same for such a book as I would pay for a SB of the same soldier issued in 1939 and carried through years of war.

[Ironcrown]

I use to consider at the same level both 1st and 2nd issue Wehrpaesse.
For most of the time these documents were kept by the military units the soldier belonged to, and when duplicates were made, usually these had the same entries of the previous ones, altough written at the same time.

The Soldbuch was worn all the time by the soldier, he got many entries during his service that in case of a second issue were not copied (eg. old security checks, prevoius clothing and equipment assignments and so on). These entries may be very useful to better understand the career of the owner. A Zweitschrift Soldbuch, while it may be easier to read and better ordered, may lack many informations so I tend to consider it lesser in value than a 1st issue.

[Ian Jewison]

Incidentally I have in the post a group which does contain a first issue Wehrpass from 1936, first issued Soldbuch from 1939 and his replacement Soldbuch from 1944. The photo is missing from the first and has been put in the second.

I bought these based on both Soldbücher being there, however if the first Soldbuch was not in the group I don't think it would have interested me at all, simply as it was there was what appealed!!

On another note, I have a few Drittschrift and a Vierteschrift as these do not crop up very often.....visually very boring but simply the fact they are not common was the reason I bought them!

/Ian

[InfanterieSammler]

It's funny to see all the different opinions - some of us won't touch a 2nd issue Wehrpaß, while others prefer them.

I definitely feel that given a choice, I would rather have an original issue Soldbuch over a Zweitschrift, however this is not a hard and fast rule. I will never buy a Soldbuch that has a missing photo - i.e. one that has been removed. I don't mind a denazified cover, but I wouldn't buy one the has the inside stamps denazified as well. There was a nice KC group offered recently where this was the case, for me it was just too visually distracting to see these large ink stains covering the swastika on every page. I definitely agree that the earlier the Zweitschrift was issued helps - I wouldn't be quite as excited about one completed in 1945, as opposed to 43/44.

Regarding a Wehrpaß, I couldn't care less whether it's an original or second issue. I would prefer a uniform photo to a civilian one. I really also like the nice typed battle sheets and tend to stay from ones that don't list the battles. I do own a few that simply state "Einsatz im Osten", because the guy was KIA shortly after the start of Barbarossa and it just hadn't been updated yet. A lack of battle entries is a pet peeve of mine with Wehrpäße.

Best,
John

[InfanterieSammler]

My heart starts racing when I open a Wehrpaß and I see this (below)...It's like being thrust right into the middle of history, knowing that this guy was there at the major battles of 1941 - Bialystok, Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Vyazma, Bryansk, and then a the gates of Moscow. One can not open a Soldbuch and see the same thing. So for me the appeal is different - the Soldbuch was literally a part of history, having been carried personally in battle, etc. The Wehrpaß though, oozes history...albeit in a different way. The Wehrpaß lays out the story of one man's service in a way and with a level of detail that a Soldbuch is not quite able to achieve.

John