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Ivan Demjanjuk ID

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    Ivan Demjanjuk ID

    As many of you know, Ivan (John) Demjanjuk has been deported to Germany and has been charged with being a guard at various concentration camps, including Sobibor. To familiarize yourself with the case, I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry about Demjanjuk:

    John Demjanjuk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Before being deported to Israel for his first trial in 1986, Demjanjuk's lawyers contacted a well-known document dealer wanting to know if she had ever observed an ID like or similar to the "Demjanjuk ID" (I was also asked if I had ever seen such an ID). This, of course, was before the Berlin Wall came down and during the very early days of the Internet. At that time, neither the dealer or I knew of any such ID.

    I do not intend to put Demjanjuk on trial here, but want to have an intelligent discussion about the Demjanjuk ID. I might mention that a book was published many years ago about the ID and that it was exposed as a forgery created by the KGB (I have this book somewhere but can't find it at the moment). I am certainly not an expert on SS IDs, especially ones that may have been issued locally, but I feel that this document is extremely crude.

    Does anyone own an ID like that supposedly issued to Demjanjuk? Or has anyone seen such an ID? I have posted two crude photos of the ID here and am hoping that someone else has better photos to post (if I find the book I have, I will post the photos contained in it). I would like to begin a serious discussion of this document and as document collectors, decide whether it is original or a forgery.

    I might add that the German government apparently has other documents that place Demjanjuk at other camps. Thus, even if the Demjanjuk ID card is indeed a fake, there may be evidence to show that he was a camp guard. It would indeed be interesting to see these documents as well to determine their originality.

    Looking forward to everyone's comments and as previously stated, the goal of this thread is to determine if we, as document collectors, would have such an ID in our collection.

    Barry
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    #2
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      #3
      Here two another images of Demjanjuk´s ID :
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        #4
        backside :
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          #5
          Thanks kuratorium! Somehow I knew you would be the one to have better copies of the ID. Now the discussion can truly begin. Thanks. Barry

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            #6
            Here is similar Dienstausweis for another "Travniki" Wachmann :
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              #7
              And here second "Travniki" Dienstausweis, but with a different cover side. Unfortunately, I can say nothing about this two "Trawniki" cards, I have found the images via Google few years ago ...
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                #8
                Fantastic kuratorium! For everyone's information, both IDs have the signature of Hauptsturmfuehrer Karl Streibel. This from a Web page:

                On October 27, 1941, Globocnik appointed SS Captain Karl Streibel to command the newly christened Trawniki training camp, a position Streibel held until the evacuation of the camp in July 1944.

                I do see slight differences in the Streibel signature on the Demjanjuk ID and the Streibel signature on the Gamaschkow ID.
                Last edited by Stormfighter; 05-13-2009, 11:15 AM.

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                  #9
                  Another interesting comparison! Since the family name of the second ID is not complete, let's refer to it as the Sergej (his first name) ID (notice that his first name is spelled two different ways on the ID - Serhej and Sergej). Notice that the same person who recorded the equipment on the Demjanjuk ID (Teufel?) also signed the Sergej ID. He is named as a Rottenfuehrer on the Demnanjuk ID and an Unterscharfuehrer on the Sergej ID.

                  I find it odd that none of these IDs have dates of issue. Most Third Reich IDs also have the signature of the person the ID was issued to. It makes me wonder why these IDs don't.
                  Last edited by Stormfighter; 05-13-2009, 12:35 PM.

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                    #10
                    And here the comparsion of all three "Trawniki" Dienstausweises. The last one is probably a late variant (higher Dienstausweis number)...
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                      #11
                      Nice work kuratorium!

                      Does anyone happen to have an example of a Karl Streibel signature on an original document? If so, I'd appreciate it if you could post it here.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Stormfighter View Post
                        Nice work kuratorium!
                        Barry,
                        thank you very much !

                        And:
                        here is the source of the
                        Gamaschkow Dienstausweis
                        and image of Karl Streibel´s SS-Stammrollen-Auszug.


                        Best,

                        Hans
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by kuratorium; 05-13-2009, 11:31 AM.

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                          #13
                          I did an Internet search for Karl Streibel and it appears that he may still be alive (or at least was until recently). Does anyone have any details on his fate? I'm wondering why he wasn't prosecuted. Have a look at this Web site:

                          Demjanjuk Awaiting Deportation Tonight - Page 3 - OD Board

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                            #14
                            Thanks for posting Streibel's SS=Stammrollen=Auszug Hans. Since Streibel was born in 1903, it's certain that he is now deceased. The discussions with him must have taken place in the 1980s shortly before Demjanjuk was deported to Israel I imagine.

                            I'd still like to see an original Streibel siganture if anyone has an example.
                            Last edited by Stormfighter; 05-13-2009, 11:45 AM.

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                              #15
                              Hans, what is your source for the Sergej ID? It's strange that it does not have an authorization signature on it. Wouldn't this make it invalid? I would think so.

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