10th Pz.Div. in Africa Wehrpass

[Larry deZeng]

That's great, Doug. Let us know what the reports have to say about the day in question. They should prove interesting!

--Larry

[Larry deZeng]

Sounds good, Doug. Let us know the outcome!

--Larry

[MilitaryCollect]

10th Pz.Div. in Africa Wehrpass

Hello,

I posted this question on a DAK forum and received this response:

Can anyone please help identify the location of 5./ PzGr. Regt. 69 on January 30-31, 1943? Was this unit at Faid Pass or with a Kampfgruppe elsewhere?

ANSWER:

the 2.Batl.of the Pz.Gren.Rgt.69 was a part of the "Kampfgruppe Weber" in "Eilbote II" which started on Jan.31.1943.

As of Jan. 14 thru Feb. 7, - KG Lueder was one of three subparts of KG WEBER and it appears to have participated in this action: "Eilbote II".

Below is a copy of the relevant text from: Paul Carrel: "The Foxes of the Desert", page: 340 (1961).

Christopher

[Doug Nash]

10th Pz.Div. Wehrpass

I read Carrel too and found his account incomplete. Am awaiting response from Chris Wilbeck, who has a copy of Lueder's report - hardly consider Carrel the most reliable source on the subject. After all, he was an SS publicist in the Aussenstelle & Nazi Foreign Service & not a soldier. While I have all his works and enjoy reading them, I have been mislead by his accounts too many times to place 100% faith in them.

[MilitaryCollect]

10th Pz.Div. in Africa Wehrpass

Hi Doug,

That seems to exhaust my limited library. Tried to assist as much as I could. Spent alot of time peruising the internet too, but with little success. There just doesn't seem to be that much dedicated solely to specific details regarding the fighting in Tunisia.

I too am very interested in learning the answer to your question. Looking forward to viewing your research results.

Best Wishes,

Christopher

[Doug Nash]

Schwere Panzer Abt. 501 and KGr Lueder

Christopher,
Well, today I got my copy of the official US Army Green Book for the NW African campaign, "Seizing the Initiative in the West." Having read the lengthy coverage it provides for the actions between Faid Pass and Sidi Bou Zid from 30 Jan to 1 Feb 1943, it's pretty clear that the only German armor involved in that action was 1st Btl., Pz.Rgt. 5 of the 21.Pz.Div.
Neither 2nd Btl., PzGrenRgt 69 nor KGr Lueder were anywhere near that area, as you had said. Most of the infantry came from 1st and 2nd Battalions of PzGrenRgt 104 of the 21.Pz.Div, which had been designated KGr Pfeiffer. But - and a mighty tantalizing prospect this is ----- Infantry Battalion T2 (T for Tunis, not Texas) was attached to KGr Pfeiffer for this operation. These Tunis Battalions (There were 3 in all) were formed in Dec. 1942/Jan. 1943 into "Infantry Regiment Tunis" and consisted of native Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians with German cadres plucked from other German formations. So, in order for Grenadier Piwon to have KIA near Sidi Bou Zid on 31 January 1943, it is quite possible that he had been attached to Inf.Btl. T2 but still had 5./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 69 as his permanent field unit. That's the best I can drill down on this case unless anyone can provide any more information about the structure of Inf.Btl. T2!
Cheers,
Doug
PS: By the way, anyone who wants to be a serious DAK historian, especially for the period Nov 1942 until May 1943, needs to get himself a copy of this Green Book from the US Army. Published in 1957 (written by George F. Howe), the amount of information in there relating to the DAK and PzArmee Afrika is staggering - and the maps are quite detailed too. Though this was written as the official history of the US Army's operations in Northwest Africa, it provides extremely detailed coverage of the Axis side as well.

[Doug Nash]

Larry deZeng

Larry,
What do you think?
Doug

[Larry deZeng]

Doug -

Everything you wrote above sounds solid to me. All I can add is that the Allies took numerous POWs in Tunisia, overran lots of CPs and confiscated whatever they could find of intelligence value, and then captured reams and reams of Axis documents in the Tunis - Cape Bon area in May. The haul was huge. As you evidenced, they used this material to reconstruct the Axis picture of the campaign. They also found many of the POWs were willing to help with details and sticky points once they were settled into camps in the U.S. Why did U.S. Army intelligence officers and historians bother with all of this? Because they needed lots of "lessons learned" material for the continuing war in the ETO. I recall seeing some of this material at Suitland in boxes containing papers from the wartime intelligence and staff schools at Fort Richie, Maryland. The "Green Series" is excellent for coverage of both sides right across the boards. I have two from the ETO and two from the Pacific, and they are two thumbs way up.

--Larry

[MilitaryCollect]

10th Pz.Div. in Africa Wehrpass

Doug,

I'm not an expert on anything, but I think the research below is pretty clear that KG Lueder, including II./Pzr. Grn. 69 & elements of the the 501st Tiger detachment (1 komp. of Panzer-Abt. 501), were North at or near Pinchon on January 31 (Eilbote II - Special Messenger 2).

Good luck with your research on the "T" for Tunis batallions!

Christopher

[Doug Nash]

Schwere Panzer Abt. 501 and KGr Lueder

After reading the US Army Green Book yesterday, I have to agree with you. By the way, you need to get a copy of one for yourself - very useful. Of course, we still haven't answered the question that kicked off this exchange - how did a soldier from 5./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 69 get KIA in the Sidi Bou Zid/Faid Pass area on 31 January 1943? I am now leaning towards the possibility that he had been assigned to Inf.Btl. T2 from a replacement pool, but that's going to be nearly impossible to prove.
Thanks for the scan of the Soldbuch with Inf.Btl. T3 --- I've got a Wehrpass for a soldier who was assigned to 3./Marsch-Btl. A22 - he was wounded in action 12 Jan 1943 & has credit for an action at Djebel bou Guedrane towards the award of the Panzerkampfabzeichen. Campaign entry on page 32 states "Kaempfe in Tunisien." He was also awarded the Afrika cuff title. Apparently, he was evacuated from Tunisia shortly after being wounded.
Thanks again for the assist - have turned to the DAK website's forum to get more info.
Cheers,
Doug

[MilitaryCollect]

Christopher,
Well, today I got my copy of the official US Army Green Book for the NW African campaign, "Seizing the Initiative in the West." Having read the lengthy coverage it provides for the actions between Faid Pass and Sidi Bou Zid from 30 Jan to 1 Feb 1943, it's pretty clear that the only German armor involved in that action was 1st Btl., Pz.Rgt. 5 of the 21.Pz.Div.
Neither 2nd Btl., PzGrenRgt 69 nor KGr Lueder were anywhere near that area, as you had said. Most of the infantry came from 1st and 2nd Battalions of PzGrenRgt 104 of the 21.Pz.Div, which had been designated KGr Pfeiffer. But - and a mighty tantalizing prospect this is ----- Infantry Battalion T2 (T for Tunis, not Texas) was attached to KGr Pfeiffer for this operation. These Tunis Battalions (There were 3 in all) were formed in Dec. 1942/Jan. 1943 into "Infantry Regiment Tunis" and consisted of native Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians with German cadres plucked from other German formations. So, in order for Grenadier Piwon to have KIA near Sidi Bou Zid on 31 January 1943, it is quite possible that he had been attached to Inf.Btl. T2 but still had 5./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 69 as his permanent field unit. That's the best I can drill down on this case unless anyone can provide any more information about the structure of Inf.Btl. T2!
Cheers,
Doug
PS: By the way, anyone who wants to be a serious DAK historian, especially for the period Nov 1942 until May 1943, needs to get himself a copy of this Green Book from the US Army. Published in 1957 (written by George F. Howe), the amount of information in there relating to the DAK and PzArmee Afrika is staggering - and the maps are quite detailed too. Though this was written as the official history of the US Army's operations in Northwest Africa, it provides extremely detailed coverage of the Axis side as well.

Doug,

I will get a copy of the Green book and sincerely hope to learn alot more about this most interesting subject.

K.G. Weber consisted of 3 parts - a photo of the Bender designations is below. Column (c) lists "Deutsches-Itlienisches Infanterie-Regiment" and four "Infanterie Batalliones". These units in subpart (c) may be the "T" unit you are looking for - however, the sources indicate that KG Weber was approached Pichon from the North - Faid being South of Pichon.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...nenTunis-R.htm

But perhaps your man was with Tunis Batallion 2. It was one of three subparts of KG Pfeiffer. Group Nord (Tunis Batl. 2) was to the North of Faid Pass and it's mission was to hold the Sidi Khalif Pass - for the battle of Faid on 30 January - 3 February, 1943.

Christopher

[MilitaryCollect]

10th Pz.Div. in Africa Wehrpass

Here's a period military map of the area.

Perhaps T2 was comprised of recent arrivals in Tunisia and survivors from other units who's units were no longer at fighting strength?

C.

[Doug Nash]

Battalion T2

Christopher -
Precisely. The Army Green Book repeatedly mentions Inf.Btl. T2 (Actually, I think it was more likely Feld-Btl. T2) being engaged at Faid pass in a supporting attack 10 Km to the north at Sidi Khalif while one of its detached companies occupied and defended Djebel Sidi Khalif 5 Km to the south and 5 km to the north of Faid Pass. T2 must have been a pure-German unit - I can't see a volunteer Arab formation (The other T2) being able to attack and seize a fortified objective in daylight. There's a really good map - attached here that provides the best outline yet of the actions that day.
Regards,
Doug

[MilitaryCollect]

10th Pz.Div. in Africa Wehrpass

According to Bender & Law, Feld Btl. T2 was part KG Pfeiffer. This KG was one of two major Gruppen of the 21st Panzer. KG Pfeiffer was divided into three subparts ("Nord", "Mitte" and "Sud"). The central group attacked Faid Pass while the northern group (Tunis Batl. 2) defended the northern flank via Sidi Khalif Pass. The weaker southern group defended the Southern flank against the French at Djebel Ksaira.

Lexinkon's link on Tunis Feld Batallions: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...nenTunis-R.htm

Where may I buy the Green Book? Looks like a fantastic source and I thank you for the lead. I've got alot to learn here!

Sincerely,

Christopher

[Larry deZeng]

Where may I buy the Green Book? Looks like a fantastic source and I thank you for the lead. I've got alot to learn here!

Howe, George F.
United States Army in World War II: Mediterranean Theater of Op..
Northwest Africa: Seizing the Initiative in the West
Washington DC: Government Printing Office, 1991
Binding: Hardcover. Pages: xxiii + 748.

http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/...g/series?10060

Readily available on Amazon.com and from just about every bookdealer in the U.S.

--Larry