SS Wiking ID tag !

[urge]

i know this is a real tag,

but what was the 5.SS F.A.Btl ?

thanks

[Larry deZeng]

but what was the 5.SS F.A.Btl ?

5. SS-Feld-Ausbildungs-Bataillon would be the full form. But, see:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...SDivWiking.htm

In the above, it's identified as SS-Felders.Btl. 5, which was formed on 22.10.1943 by re-designating SS-Felders.Btl. Wiking.

According to Tessin, there was no 5. SS-Feld-Ausb.-Btl. no any other battalion named "5. SS-F.A. Btl.", so you may want to double-check the authenticity of the tag.

--Larry

[Simon O.]

The way this is written indicates a 5 Kompanie F.A. Btl. Wiking.

If the battalion was numbered 5 then the number would come after Btl. not before.

From what i understand it was another term used for the Felderstaz bataillon.

http://panzer-archiv.de/forum/viewto...2d5901352750f9

[urge]

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Simon,

The discussion on that web site ended inconclusively, so I would hazard that we are not out of the woods yet, so to speak.

OK. Also kein SS-Feld-Ausb.Btl.5 aber SS-Feld-Ers.Btl.5. Weiß jemand warum kommt es zu solcher Fehler oder Anomalie?

Something is wrong here, and the original poster would be advised to begin checking some the numerous books that cover this division:

Die SS- Panzer- Division Wiking:

Europäische Freiwillige. Die Geschichte der 5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking" - Peter Straßner, Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück 1968, 448 Seiten.
Der Kessel von Tscherkassy. Die Flut verschlang sich selbst - nicht uns. Eine Dokumentation - und Kartenwerk der Truppenkameradschaft 5. SS-Pz.Div. "Wiking" - Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück o.J.
Niederländische Freiwillige im Europäischen Kriegsdienst 1940 - 1945 - Teil 4: 5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking" und kleinere Formationen - Vincx/Schotanius, Verlag ETNIKA, Herentals/Belgien o.J. (1994), 696 Seiten.
Panzergrenadiere der Panzer-Division "Wiking" im Bild - Fritz Hahl, Rgt. Kameradschaft "Westland", Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück 1984, 300 S.
Mit dem Panzerregiment 5 Wiking im Osten - Ewald Klapdor, Eigenverlag, Siek 1981, 392 Seiten.
Verweht sind die Spuren. Bilddokumentation 5. SS-Panzer-Regiment "Wiking" - Rolf Proschek, Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück 1979, 204 Seiten.
Das SS-Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 5 in der Panzer-Division Wiking im Bild - Günter Bernau, Eigenverlag Kameradschaft, Wuppertal 1990, 300 Seiten.
Die Geschichte der 7. Batterie SS-Art.Rgt. 5, SS.Pz.Div. Wiking - herausgegeben vom ehem. Bttr.Chef, 54 Seiten, Fotos, Abb., Karte, Din-A-4.
Die Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung Wiking. Männer mit Mikrofon und Morsetaste -Herbert Schmeißer, Eigenverlag, 7063 Welzheim o.J. (1985), 100 Seiten.
Chronik der 2./SS-Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 5 "Wiking" - Heinz Lechtenböhmer, Selbstverlag o.O. und o.J.
Das Finnische Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS, III. (finn.) Nordland - Wilhelm Tieke, Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück 1979, 290 Seiten.
Pioniere nach vorn. Vom Kaukasus bis Kurland - Günther Wanhöfer, Vowinckel-Verlag, Neckargemünd 1962, 248 Seiten.
Ein ruheloser Marsch war unser Leben - Wilhelm Tieke, Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück 1977, 232 Seiten, Leinen mit SU.
Mit Westland im Osten. Erinnerungen eines hochausgezeichneten Frontoffiziers des Regiments Westland der Division Wiking. - Fritz Hahl, 163 Seiten, broschiert.

I think regulations would have forbidden the imprinting of Erkennungsmarke with the abbreviation of a unit unless it had officially received that designation. But I could be wrong, of course.

--Larry

[Simon O.]

I know it's oddball, that's why it made me curious but they've turned up before on WAF

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ildungs+wiking

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ildungs+wiking

[Larry deZeng]

Yeah, Simon, I see your point. But 30 of them "dug up" at one time near Korsun/Ukraine in the early 1990s? I freely confess that I am not a collector myself, but I have read enough here and on other web sites about Eastern European involvement in creative militaria "manufacturing" to be more than somewhat skeptical of these very odd Erkennungsmarken. I sincerely hope for the sake of those collectors who have them that I am wrong.

--Larry

[Gaspare]

once plentiful,,now on the scarce side.. No need to cast a doubt on them,,this is a fine original ID tag.

[Reiner]

That tags are 100% correct.

[Larry deZeng]

Gaspare & Reiner -

But how do you know? If you read this thread in its entirety along with the commentary on the panzer-archiv web site that Simon directed us to, there seems to be enough circumstantial evidence to raise legitimate doubt concerning the genuineness of these tags. If you have clear and convincing evidence that these are authentic tags, could you possible provide it so we can make a judgement for ourselves?

Tks,

--Larry

[Gaspare]

Larry, if you want to get technical, ,talking 100%s here,, no tag is good and can have a doubt casted on it unless it came directly from a vet,,,and even then they have been faked for a sale..

I'm no longer a tag collector. Collected since the late 70s when no one wanted them.. I still have put away about 50 or so tags I'm certain are good because either I dug them personally, or trust the vet or digger that gave them to me. I've been through it all though. Including going to digs in East Europe, watching them make and age tags, etc..

For me personally,and key, I wouldn't touch any tag unless it is known for its unique die stamp font. Some tags have their own, not used on any other service branches and/or units. Examples are the embossed 14th TJR and 4 SS JR 14 [mot],,and the Reg. Prag.,most Germania/Deutschland,Todt, and certain foreign legion tags...
*There are also only certain accepted fonts for 'Waffen-SS' on the backs which so far we don't know if this tag has..

These Wiking tags have been around for a very long time. My wife's family were some of the first diggers as soon as the USSR broke up. They had given me one of these tags once. After a few years of going to Ukraine I asked to attend a dig. A grueling exhausting experience. I've seen one of these tags come up from the ground. No one knew exactly what it was. I was on wash duty as my back just couldn't take the digging. Washing a giant spackel pail of small stuff, buttons, cups, buckles, rings, and yes one of these tags.. These tags are known for that distinct font style. There are many that were honest ground dug items.

If you want to cast doubt you might as well close down this section of the site as most tags are of a generic font style.. You give me a blank tag and a set of dies and I can make and age a tag no one would be able to tell the difference in a couple of days..

If you don't like that tag its fine,thats your opinion. But there's many tag collectors that have been collecting a very long time. They will all tell you the same about these tags. If its a zinc tag,,has this exact font style and has Waffen - SS on the back its fine..

* Urge,,how about a shot of the reverse of this tag?..Thanks .,G.

[Larry deZeng]

Gaspare -

That's an excellent synopsis of the issue and exactly what I was hoping for. The difference between our two positions on this is explained by your purely technical approach as opposed to my purely historical approach. If the unit's existence cannot be verified and the very way it has been written on the tag is incorrect (see Simon's post #3), then we all have justification for being skeptical. Accordingly, I certainly understand why you decided to stop collecting Erkennungsmarken. One rotten apple in the barrel can quickly spoil the other 99. As I said earlier, I sincerely hope I am wrong on this for the sake of those collectors who have one of these tags.

Thanks again,

--Larry

[bikerboyzx6r]

Great comments... As for my experience... I have seen a dogtag being dug-up, cleaned up & then taken to a military collectors fare... only to be told by "an expert" that it is an 80's fake, loads were made & its worth nothing.... just show's you how everyone of us can be or has been wrong even if your a top collector!

[Larry deZeng]

Good points, b.b.zx6r !!

[urge]

thanks for all good answers

here is the backside