Help to ID SS unit wanted!

[Laban]

Hi Group

This dogtag is 100 percent genuine: my father found it in a wood in Austria in the early 1950's.

Can you help me identify the unit? Does the 3 imply Totenkopf?

Sincerely

Erik

[Denis]

Hello
This is read as follows :
SS PZ Gren. Ausb. u E. Btl. 3 = SS Panzer Grenadier Training and Replacement Batailon 3
This unit belongs to the 3. SS Pz. Div.
The number on the other side is the original owner as each new soldier was numbered in the main unit lists (correct me if i am wrong).
Hope this helps
Regards
Denis

[Chris Stewart]

There are very few discs that I have seen that are for "actual" units. Meaning, most are replacement/training units. I'm not sure which units this replacement unit supplied, but the 3 doesn't directly correspond to an actual SS unit that was actively engaged, but rather a replacment unit which could have supplied various units with men.

This doesn't mean this dogtag did not belong to the Totenkopf. Someone who has a master list of which replacement units supplied which units should be able to tell you the possibilities as to where this soldier served.

Sorry I can't help more in that sense. I'm sure someone else should be able to.

One thing I do notice on your disc is the following: the "Stamm Kp" looks to be smaller than the stamp used to make the rest of the unit (especially below). Compare the size of the lower case "m" of the Stamm and the lower case "n" on the Gren. They are of different size. Not sayings its fake, just saying that would be cause for suspicion with me.

Also, does anyone know what "Ausb-u" is?

Maybe some more people can give you better information/details on your disc.

Chris

[Ian Jewison]

As Denis partly mentioned:

Stamm Kompanie, SS Panzer Grenadier Ausbildung und Ersatz Bataillon 3 = Cadre Company, SS Panzer Grenadier Training and Replacement Batailon 3.

This did supply replacements to Totenkopf, however 1943/1944 (I think as my books aren't here!) it supplied them to other units also......

One thing that I have noticed, normally it should read "Pz.Gren.Ers. u.Ausb.Btl. 3" rather than "Pz.Gren.Ausb. u.Ers.Btl. 3"!!! Typo or rubbish!?!?!?

/Ian

[Chris Stewart]

Yes Ian, that is why I was asking if anyone knew what Ausb-u is. I've seen the latter on some examples, but not like that.

Just for my own curiousity, is that difference in stamp size I noticed an oddity or normality? =)

[C. Kleijn]

Hello Ian,

That's not true IMO. The 'A.' for 'Ausbildung' was normally placed before the 'u.' and 'E.' I have a dog tag which was found in the Oosterbeek perimeter near Arnhem and it reads:

SS-Pz.Gren.A.u.E.Btl.1

The weird thing on the upper dog tag from the Stamm Kp. is the abbreviation. But who knows, dog tags are one of the most dangerous areas to decide whether something is original or not because there are simply very few text book markings.

With best regards,
Cees

[Ian Jewison]

The norm is Ersatz und Ausbildung...however I have just checked two SS "HJ" Soldbuch of mine and they appear to be Ausbildung und Ersatz.....

Perhaps it is different for SS but for Army units it was Ersatz first........

I do not collect Erkennungsmarke, however these are highly faked...particularly SS. Abbreviations however are the same whether on a document, in a Soldbuch or on a dog tag......

There are quite a few references to dog tags and 3 books that I know of...........

/Ian

[Chris Stewart]

Another thing I noticed about this tag:

Looking at the image of the back, the impression of "/ SS. Pz." is clearly visible (on both top and bottom), whilst the rest of the stamp is barely, if even, visible at all. I believe tags were always stamped at once, and from my experience from the same stamp - same pressure etc. used. The only thing that would be stamped later would be if there was a blood group stamped on it, which would be placed there once the tag was issued (or not at all in some cases, especially SS tags).

While you do claim the tag was found by your father, if I ever saw this for sale I would have serious doubts about its authenticity, especially since it is an SS tag.

Chris

[Laban]

Hi Group

Thanks for the many replies. When did they start to make fake dogtags? I have no reson to doubt my fathers explanation, about finding it in a wood. But it was long before my time :-)

Best regards

Erik