De-coding dog tag

[Lee Luke]

Hello, does anyone know what K.S. Lg VI is on a dogtag? Lg could be luftgau or lehr gruppe, but K.S. could be a lot of things.

[Larry deZeng]

Hello, does anyone know what K.S. Lg VI is on a dogtag? Lg could be luftgau or lehr gruppe, but K.S. could be a lot of things.

Lg VI is definitely Luftgau VI. The abbreviation for Lehrgruppe would be LGr. Furthermore, there was no Lehrgruppe that used a Roman numerial.

K.S., as you said, could be a variety of different things, too many to speculate on. If you had a date of issuance for the tag, then the possibilities might be narrowed down a bit.

--BHS1956

[mr.dogtag]

Well, this is fairly simple one:
Kommando Stab Luftgau VI
Rgds
Al

[Larry deZeng]

Well, this is fairly simple one:
Kommando Stab Luftgau VI
Rgds
Al

I suppose that's a possibility, except for the fact that the Luftwaffe did not use a single capital "K" and a single capital "S" as an abbreviation for Kommandostab. They used Kdo.St. or Kdo.Stab. This is from the British Air Ministry's Manual of German Air Force Terminology: German - English, compiled by A.I.12 (Directorate of Intelligence, Post Hostilities), and published in late 1945 or the first half of 1946. However, I have KStN 303 (L) Stab einer Luftgaukommando and there is nothing there that matches up with "K.S." So it is possible that it might be an unauthorized super-short abbreviation for Kommandostab. Incidently, a Luftgaukdo. was mostly civilians. Of the 869 job slots, only 195 were military.

--BHS1956

[mr.dogtag]

Quote: except for the fact that the Luftwaffe did not use a single capital "K" and a single capital "S" as an abbreviation for Kommandostab. They used Kdo.St. or Kdo.Stab. This is from the British Air Ministry's Manual of German Air Force Terminology: German - English, compiled by A.I.12 (Directorate of Intelligence, Post Hostilities), and published in late 1945 or the first half of 1946.
Heh,BHS1956, you must have an extraordinary sense of humour to refer to this kind of manuals as sources of ultimate knowledge.
Actually there were very few principles when it comes to abbreviations on tags. I know the Manual as well as several other materials elaborated by Intelligence Service etc. - however they give only an outline of the topic and one decoding tags should not stick strictly to these or any other abbreviation listings, otherwise can end up with " flying submarine tank" kind of units.
Remember that the same abbreviations can have different meanings as well as there are cases when different abbreviations are used to describe the same unit.
Regards
Al

[mr.dogtag]

One more thing - the civilians working at LG Kdo were also issued tags.
I have a nice tag issued Putzfrau (cleaning lady) employed by some Luftwaffe training area. LW tags issued to civilians have capital letter A stamped in front of the Stammrollenummer.
Regards
Al

[Larry deZeng]

Heh,BHS1956, you must have an extraordinary sense of humour to refer to this kind of manuals as sources of ultimate knowledge.

Hey, Al, that Air Ministry Manual was written using Luftwaffe documents, Luftwaffe regulations and manuals, personal papers taken from countless P/Ws, Erkennungsmarke by the bucket full as well as many other sources. At nearly 300 pages, it's a pretty comprehensive resource. One of our U.K. moderators has a copy of it and can attest to its value. Is it correct 100% of the time? Certainly not. Are there exceptions? There certainly are. But I've been a researcher and historian of the Luftwaffe for 42 years now and spent a lot of time at BA-MA Freiburg, the old PRO in London and several archives in the States working with the surviving documents, and to the trained and experienced eye they are pretty reliable. Sure, you have to be careful, especially with the intelligence documentation, but they are pretty reliable.

Now I'm going to do what you do, Al - express an opinion. I don't think "K.S." stands for Kommandostab. I think it stands for Kraftfahr-Staffel. You see, each Luftgaukommando had a Staffel of cars and drivers to chauffeur the brass around, and being the Luftwaffe and all, Staffel is what they called it. Now "K.S." is no more the official abbreviation for Kraftfahr-Staffel than it is for Kommandostab, but it works just as well.

Cheers,

--BHS1956

[32InfDiv]

Hello, interesting diskusion. It existed usual and unusual abbreviations on discs. In the last case i think the main problem is that did not existed a official regulation list for unit abbreviation in the air force and in the army. Only the war navy had it. Theoretically they can stamped anything on ID discs. Important in this fact is that the marking on the ID disc agrees with the entry in the identity discs list of the unit. These lists wears the full name of the unit in his head, and became refresh regularly.

regards
Andreas

[Larry deZeng]

Hello, interesting diskusion. It existed usual and unusual abbreviations on discs. In the last case i think the main problem is that did not existed a official regulation list for unit abbreviation in the air force and in the army. Only the war navy had it. Theoretically they can stamped anything on ID discs. Important in this fact is that the marking on the ID disc agrees with the entry in the identity discs list of the unit. These lists wears the full name of the unit in his head, and became refresh regularly.
regards
Andreas

Hi Andreas,

I agree with most of what you said, but I am not so sure that there was no regulation or manual governing the use of abbreviations. To be sure, I have never seen one, but I have seen oblique references to such a manual (Dienstvorschrift) or service instruction (Dienstanweisung). In any event, the Wehrmacht was amazingly consistent in its use of abbreviations, especially within each service (Heer, Luftwaffe, usw.). There certainly were deviations, but I would estimate the level of consistency at 95% or better. The Erkennungsmarke are really a separate problem, though, in that whatever was inscribed on them was constrained by space limitations. So I suppose most anything went, just as you have said. As long as the Erkennungsmark could be matched to the Stammrolle, then that was all that was needed.

--BHS1956

[32InfDiv]

Hi Andreas,
but I am not so sure that there was no regulation or manual governing the use of abbreviations. To be sure, I have never seen one, but I have seen oblique references to such a manual (Dienstvorschrift) or service instruction (Dienstanweisung). --BHS1956

Yes that is correctly BHS 1965 i think they exist too. But what i would to say is that there exist definitely no regulation to use these abbreviations on id disc. Exception the war marine, they had this.

In any event, the Wehrmacht was amazingly consistent in its use of abbreviations, especially within each service (Heer, Luftwaffe, usw.). There certainly were deviations, but I would estimate the level of consistency at 95% or better. The Erkennungsmarke are really a separate problem, though, in that whatever was inscribed on them was constrained by space limitations. So I suppose most anything went, just as you have said. As long as the Erkennungsmark could be matched to the Stammrolle, then that was all that was needed.

--BHS1956

Yes that it is, i agree 100%

Best regards
Andreas

[mr.dogtag]

BHS, I can't agree with the Kraftfahr Staffel of LG VI. If your theory would be correct a number of Staffel should be included ( like Lw. Kraft.St.5/VI) But it isn't.
Regards
Al

[mr.dogtag]

Just to give some examples....

Rgds
Al

[Larry deZeng]

BHS, I can't agree with the Kraftfahr Staffel of LG VI. If your theory would be correct a number of Staffel should be included ( like Lw. Kraft.St.5/VI) But it isn't.
Regards
Al

Hi Al,

It isn't a theory. Please see the following explanation. I have the full KStN tables for the Luftwaffe, Al. These list every conceivable type of unit authorized by the Organisationsabteilung/Genst.d.Lw. and formed between 1935 and 1945, together with their full and correct German designation and KStN number. I also have a copy of the Luftwaffe Mobilisationslist with the Mob.Nr. assigned to many thousands of units. These come from BA-MA in Freiburg im Breisgau.

(1) Motor and Non-Motor Transport Units Common to the Luftwaffe:
Flieger-Nachschubkolonnen-Abt. (renamed Nachschubkolonnen-Abt. (Stab) d.Lw.)
Flieger-Nachschubkolonnen
Flieger-Transportkolonnen
Transportkolonnen d.Lw. (7 different types)
Transportkolonnen d.Lw. See
Lastkraftwagenkolonnen d.Lw.
Wassertransportkolonne (Mot) (Trop) d.Lw.
Fliegerbetriebsstoff-Kolonnen (renamed Flugbetriebsstoff-Kolonnen) (3 types)
Flugbetriebsstoff-Tank-u.Spülkolonnen d.Lw.
Lw.-Transportkompanie (Mot) für Sondereinsatz
Fahrkolonnen d.Lw. (2 types)
Fahrbereitschaft d.Lw.
Bekleidungs-u.Waschereikolonnen d.Lw.
Spülkolonnen d.Lw.
Verladekolonnen d.Lw.
Raupenschlepper-Transportkolonnen d.Lw.
Einsatzhafen-Ausrüstungskolonnen

(2) and finally,
Kraftfahrstaffel einer Luftflottenkommando
Kraftfahrstaffel einer Luftgaukommando
Kraftfahrbereitschaft Generalkommando einer Fliegerkorps
Kraftfahrbereitschaft einer Fliegerdivision

The units in (1) above were organized within each Luftgau and carried a Luftgau number (i.e., 4/VI, 7/XII, 121/XVII, etc.). Each type had its own KStN and KAN. Each unit also had its own Feldpostnummer in most cases.

The units in (2) above were organic to the headquarters they belonged to. For example, Kraftfahrstaffel Luftgaukommando XI was an organic component of that headquarters. There was only of these. It did not carry an individual number. If the Luftgaukommando it belonged to had a Feldpostnummer, then its Kraftfahrstaffel used the same Feldpostnummer followed by a suffix (i.e., D, G, H or whatever).

HTH and Cheers,

--BHS 1956

[KM-NZ]

ok sorry to butt in, but what about my one ?

HL 4126
5711 A

Cheers

Mark

[32InfDiv]

The units in (1) above were organized within each Luftgau and carried a Luftgau number (i.e., 4/VI, 7/XII, 121/XVII, etc.). Each type had its own KStN and KAN. Each unit also had its own Feldpostnummer in most cases.

The units in (2) above were organic to the headquarters they belonged to. For example, Kraftfahrstaffel Luftgaukommando XI was an organic component of that headquarters. There was only of these. It did not carry an individual number. If the Luftgaukommando it belonged to had a Feldpostnummer, then its Kraftfahrstaffel used the same Feldpostnummer followed by a suffix (i.e., D, G, H or whatever).

HTH and Cheers,

--BHS 1956

Hello, very good information and explanation. Thanks for this!

Kraftfahr-Staffel is a good variant. unfortunately i think in this case it can not be 100% surely, because there of course further possibilities like Kommando-Stab and other unknown variants...this is the problem if a abbreviation is too short.

regards Andreas