KC entry's in Soldbuch or Wehrpass question ?

[Stijn David]

Hello,


I have a question concerning posthumous KC awards, iff a person did win the Knightscross posthumously , did they write the entry in his personal papers ( such as Wehrpass, Soldbuch ? ) .

Would the familie receive the Large( official ) KC document ( in the red map )as late as 10.1943 ? , or did they receive the preliminary award document ?

Any help concerning this is welcome.

Yours Sincerely,

[CSP]

Don't know. My guess is "no" to the first question - as a matter or course, but may have somehow happened.
Regarding the second question, I'd guess "no" again, but possible. Bet Gordon Williamson can answer better than a guess.
Scott

[Gordon Williamson]

I would say no, it is very unlikely that an entry would be made in the Soldbuch for a posthumous Ritterkreuz award. Once the soldier is dead, his Soldbuch ceases to be of relevance.
The Wehrpass however was a record of his military service and was returned to the next of kin as a momento on the death of the serviceman and I have seen several with posthumous award entries in them, so I can't see why the Ritterkreuz award would be any different.

As to the Urkunde, I don't know of any being produced for posthumous awards, but that doesn't mean they weren't. Given the huge amount of labor that went into producing one, my guess is that they would concentrate on making them for living Ritterkreuzträger they eventually gave up even trying to keep pace with "living" recipients so my guess is that documents for posthumous awards would take a lower priority.


Gordon

[Stijn David]

Hello,


Thanks for the reply gordon.

Im intriged by this award document mather, in many cases the familie ( next off kin ) received the actual award ( in this case the KC, because it was such a prestigious award ) , so iff the military governement would take the effort to present this piece( read the KC ), wy would they not present a award document along with it ?

( as for example they did in some cases for KIA soldiers => see the big document , Gefallen für Fatherland, etc... )

Do you know on wich date the Big document was no longer been presented ?

Any other opinions are greatly appreciated,

[bhholst]

Some information related to Ritterkreuz awards after death indicate that the cross and the Vorlauefiges Besitzzeugnis (preliminary award certificate ) were sent to the pertinent home army defense area office (Wehrkreiskommando) to be handed to the survivor(s) in an appropriate form. I am not knowledgeable as to the matter of the 'Grosse Urkunde' ( the large certificate on vellum contained in a large leather folder)in those cases when the award was bestowed after death. As stated earlier, the effort to handcraft these, was considerable and I am unaware of priorities if any that were applied in these cases.
Also a timeframe as to the end of providing the large certificates to Ritterkreuz recipients is unknown to me. Perhaps it may be of interest that a Oakleaves recipient when visiting the Chancellery in April 1945, saw karge numbers of these certificates waiting to be signed. (as reported by H. Geisler in his book about the Iron Cross).
B.H.H.

[bhholst]

Further to the subject of 'Wehrpass' bearing entry of military awards bestowed after death the following may contribute to some better understanding though it does not establish a clear yes or no as to the above discussed entries:
a document/medal grouping of an officer killed in Tunesia in late January 1943 contains both his Soldbuch (probably left with his unit prior to the operation which turned out to be his last one) and his Wehrpass. Both were returned to his widow by the Wehrkreiskommando with mention that the Wehrpass was meant to serve as source document for matters of survivorship.
In regards to Knightscross recipients it is known that they enjoyed a special care program by the High Command (details escape me though). It stands to reason that the Wehrpass would contain relevant entries to identify the former Wehrpass holder as a recipient and now his family as survivors of such a recipient.
Bernhard H. Holst

[Chris Boonzaier]

I would imagine in some cases the guy could have been proposed for the RK after his death, and by the time the approval came through, the wehrpass was already with the family, thus leavig a wehrpass without the entry.

[Angel Farré]

Regarding entries after death time in a Wehrpass I can say that I have in my collection a group from a Leutnant killed in the first days of Barbarossa (July 20th, 1.941) and in his Wehrpass appears only both Iron Crosses as his uniques awards but in documents are present the "1st Oktober 1.938" medal (not shown in the Wehrpass) and the Infantry Assault Badge in Silver at a date as later as September 9th, 1.942 with a letter from the Regiment Kommandeur announcing the sending of the citation, the Rigiment's order and the badge to the family. With this in mind I think that could be posible that posthumous awards were not notated in the Soldbuch/Wehrpass but notified to the families with a letter like the one I have in my collection.