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    #46
    Sb

    And the promotion page from the Soldbuch. He was promoted to Oberleutnant on 1.1.45 (like also mentioned in the Wehrpass). Interestingly, there is the same type of stamp in the Soldbuch on this page but with another signature.

    Regards
    Roger

    PS: Sorry for the relatively bad quality of the photo. I don't want to bend the SB, WP for the scanner and took photos with my digital camera.

    Comment

      #47
      Originally posted by Sturmvogel View Post
      Does anyone know to which unit 37119 belonged to?
      Roger



      37119
      (28.2.1941-29.7.1941) I. Gruppe Kampf-Geschwader 51,

      Ian

      Comment

        #48
        Fpn

        Hi Ian,

        Thanks! That would fit very well :-)

        Regards
        Roger

        Comment

          #49
          Now I am at home I will take a look through my references to see if we can identify signatures etc.

          However seeing as I have not had a beer for a week I will have a few of those first and get back to you tomorrow.........

          /Ian
          Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

          Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

          Comment

            #50
            There is another puzzling discrepancy. The mimeographed 1957 form document states (from his own SB and/or WP) that he was awarded the Ehrenpokal on 1 May 1941. Yet, the 1986 Ehrenpokal reference book by Horst Scheibert states that Ofw. Hubert Lange, who belonged to a Kampfgeschwader, was awarded the Ehrenpokal on 23.09.41.

            With 10.375 recipients, is it possible that there are two different fellows with this name? Also, the awardees in this reference work always (there are only a very few exceptions) show he specific function, i.e., Flugzeugführer, Beobachter, Bordfunker, Bordschütze, Bordmechaniker, Bordwart, Staffelkapitän, Gruppenkommandeur, beside the name. Why isn't this the case with Hubert Lange? He was a Flugzeugführer, wasn't he? If he was, then he is the only pilot in this huge reference work who does not have Flugzeugführer next to his name.

            So, the date and the entry data are wrong in either his documents or in those of the Luftwaffenpersonalamt, OR, the Hubert Lange in the Ehrenpokal book is a different individual, which makes the entry for the Ehrenpokal in your Hubert Lange's documents questionable.

            --BHS1956

            Comment

              #51
              kc group

              Roger,

              When you have a moment please post the document you have for the document of the spange w/ 200 hanger. At a minimum this will put to rest the conversation regarding the DKiG. It would seem strange, in my mind that after 200+ front flights a German Cross in Gold would not have been awarded????

              Thanks also for the 1950's documents, great, nice group.

              JG

              Comment

                #52
                Ehrenpokal

                Hello BHS1956,

                It is the same Hubert Lange, I am 100% sure. His Leistungsbuch shwos all the flights and there was not two-seat Me 262 fighter bomber and since he flew 15 missions with the Me 262 he must have been the pilot. Besides this, it says Fliegendes Personal in the SB and in the Flugbuch it is always him as pilot (not as Begleiter). I attach a letter he got after being awarded the Ehrenpokal. I don't know why it says 21.5.41 in the SB but it is surely original. It is 21 also in the 1957 documents, the "2" is just barely visible.

                Hello Jeremy,

                I attach a low resolution scan and copyright text as I plan to publish it in a book I am writing about the Me 262. But I hope it is enough to proof that he had the Frontflugspange with 200 (and hopefully also the DKiG).

                Kind regards
                Roger
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #53
                  Frontflugspange

                  Frontflugspange
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Signatures

                    Hello,

                    A historian whom I know could identify the signatures:

                    Singature e.g. next to the victory confirmation: Adjutant of I. Gruppe KG 51, Oberleutnant Harald Hovestadt.

                    Signature next to the promotion in the Soldbuch: Churusky, Staffelführer and later Kapitän 1. Staffel

                    So, to me it looks more and more that he really had claimed 5 enemy aircraft as destroyed. If it was approved by KG51, that could explain that he got the KC.

                    But again, without another source confirming that he got the KC and DKiG it is probably impossible to confirm the entries in the Wehrpass.

                    Regards
                    Roger

                    Comment

                      #55
                      Lists


                      Now I am at home I will take a look through my references to see if we can identify signatures etc.

                      However seeing as I have not had a beer for a week I will have a few of those first and get back to you tomorrow.........

                      /Ian

                      Hello Ian,

                      Did you have time to check your lists at home yet?

                      Thanks,
                      Roger

                      Comment

                        #56
                        Roger,

                        It's late and I'm tired, so I'll simply post this link and let you do the research....

                        http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Hu...8&start=0&sa=N

                        Tim

                        Comment

                          #57
                          Google

                          Hello Tim,

                          Google was about the first thing I checked before I even got the documents. Nothing spectacular can be found like this and I didn't expect to find a RK-list via google which nobody has seen before

                          Regards
                          Roger

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Frontflugspange

                            Hello,

                            I just found a very similar document for the Frontflugspange for another pilot of KG51 on www.thirdreich.ca/trdocs.php

                            This one is obviously a copy of the original one. I am wondering now if I have an original or if it also came from www.thirdreich.ca (although the flight log and Leistungsbuch confirm his 200+ combat flights).

                            Does anybody have experience with thridreich.ca? Are these documents based exactly on an origial or pure fantasy? Interestingly, both were issued on the same day. Either they did this periodically for all their pilots at the same time or it is a more than a strange coincidence. What do you think?

                            Regards
                            Roger
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Ffsp

                              For comparison....
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Sturmvogel View Post
                                Hello Ian,

                                Did you have time to check your lists at home yet?

                                Thanks,
                                Roger
                                Hello Roger,

                                No I have not checked anything as in the post above you say "A historian whom I know could identify the signatures:"....so I thought there is no point in me doing it as well.

                                For you info, he is not listed in the KG51 book as being a Ritterkreuztr******228;ger....you would expect that book to have him mentioned if he was!!! However, I do not have this book....it would be interesting to see if he is mentioned as a DKiG winner (which I very much doubt!) but more so being an Ehrenpokal winner!!!

                                Regards,
                                Ian

                                P.S. thirreich.ca does copies and museum copies as far as I know and nothing original!!!
                                Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

                                Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

                                Comment

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