Help with Panzer ID tag

[Jørn Schmidt]

Hi
I need some help with this ID tag,its marked" Vs.kp/panther/pz.Btl.51"
Do they exist with the panther markings in the tag?
Thanks
J.S

[nonameno]

Hello Jorn,
I have not seen one that I felt good about. I have one dogtag for the other panther batallion, which is just marked Pz 52.
Thanks,
Curtiss

[mr.dogtag]

Well,
I know some tags with Panther indication (I guess Pz.Rgt.31 as far as I remember). So I don't have any problem with having Panther on a tag - altough must admit that it is a rare item and would make a "crown jewel" of any tag collection (unfortunately I don't have one ).
However - I need to say that I don't like your tag at all as typeface reminds me St.Petersburg made fakes of late '90-ties.
Rgds
Al

[Matt L]

Hi J******248;rn,

I'm afraid it's a definite fake- the lettering is indeed a quite recognizable fake type. The major killer is that the unit is marked 'Pz. Btl. 51', which is completely wrong. In the Wehrmacht, Panzer units were organized as Abteilungen, NOT Bataillone.

I also agree with Curtiss that marking 'Panther' on a disc seems really unlikely to me- it's not part of any real unit designation I know of, and it wouldn't be something I would ever expect a unit would want to advertise for security reasons. There are similar fakes with 'Tiger' on them.

Matt

[mr.dogtag]

Matt,
fully agree on Bataillon issue.It was so obvious that I haven't even commented on that. Still I can confirm at least one case when the word Panther appeared on original tag from Pz.Rgt.31. It is definitely unexplainable to me why somebody made so much effort to advertise the equipment used in this very sub-unit of Pz.Rgt 31. but... it is true.
All Best
Al

[Jørn Schmidt]

Thanks for your help with the tag,its not mine,it was offered to me,but I must admit that I'm helpless with these,so again thanks,and back with the tag.
Cheers
J.S

[Matt L]

I've actually had people argue with me about the Abteilung/ Bataillon issue before Al if you can believe it (ha). It might be obvious to you and I and anyone who's fairly familiar with the details of the Wehrmacht's unit designation system, but since most books translate Abteilung as 'Battalion' in English, many people don't appreciate the distinction so I always point it out. On this particular disc, it's the clear proof that it's a fake- even if the 'font' weren't recognizable.

Actually, this disc is a perfect teaching example for just this reason- the fact that it's marked 'Panzer-Bataillon', which is absolutely, completely wrong, it is definitely 100% fake. Therefore any other disc marked with the exact same lettering (i.e. made using the same stamp set) is by extension also fake. The very 'hooked' 'r', the 'a' with a space in the loop, and the '3' with the 'squished' top are all clear identifiers of this fake letter type. This disc isn't the perfect example of them, however these flaws are siginficant and fairly easily recognizable. I'd advise anyone interested to save this image to compare other discs against. This is probably the most common type of fake.

Now as for this 'Panther' disc you mentioned Al- do you have a picture of it and can you explain specifically how you know it's authentic? Not that I don't want to take your word for it benig true, but I can't use anecdotes without details as evidence in evaluations and tell people 'I was told by someone that he knew this to be the case but I can't say why'

[Reiner]

I also agree with Curtiss that marking 'Panther' on a disc seems really unlikely to me

Matt

Here is an original tag with "panther" marking, my friend found it in Ostpreussen, so it`s 100% original item...

[nonameno]

Hello Rainer,
Very interesting looking tag! It is also to the same regiment that Mr. Dogtag had mentioned he saw 'Panther' markings on.
Any idea what the "LH" mean?
Thank you,
Curtiss

[Reiner]

Hello Nonameno!
"LH" means "Landeseigene Hilfskrafte" - Landeshilfe
Many thanx to mr. dogtag

[mr.dogtag]

Aha!
Exactly like the one my friend found in Danzig area!
Thanks for sharing this picture.
Al

[Matt L]

Very interesting! I'd have bet money they woudn't mark something like that on an Erkennungsmarke- then again this is for helpers, not soldiers of the unit

[mr.dogtag]

Matt, As we have concluded on one of other threads - most interesting tags were issued in combat units. Unfortunatly most rare ones. As either someone needed to loose his tag and get a replacement or to be a HiWi/Frw/LH drafted directly to that unit.
I would say that over 50 % of combat unit tags recovered in Danzig/Hela area were owned by auxiliaries etc.
The question is if they were throwing the tags because of their eastern origin, or these weren't issued and are coming from ploundered HQ's ( after war people were searching bunkers for tools, and all sorts of useful things, but were leaving medals, dogtags etc, as they didn't made any value . My father always says that it's a pity he haven't filled the cellar with german helmets etc. That would make a real fortune now.
All best
Al

[Reiner]

Thanks for sharing this picture.
Al

I`m at your service

[Matt L]

Matt, As we have concluded on one of other threads - most interesting tags were issued in combat units. Unfortunatly most rare ones. As either someone needed to loose his tag and get a replacement or to be a HiWi/Frw/LH drafted directly to that unit.
I would say that over 50 % of combat unit tags recovered in Danzig/Hela area were owned by auxiliaries etc.

Oh I believe it- in general I wouldn't expect replacement discs to have been issued all that often, but there were lots of helpers, etc. Sadly for those of us who aren't at all interested in non-combat units or personnel, it's even harder to find interesting field unit discs- that aren't early- because so few (relatively) were ever made.