Polizei-Panzer dog tag

[Doc]

Hello,

I'd like to share with you this dog tag of a soldier belonging to 12.verst.pol.panz.komp.(SS). The unit was commanded under the subordination of the 22.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division "Maria Theresia" in October 1944 and it was destroyed in the siege of Budapest together with the whole division. It is made of steel-chrome.
Doc

[Matt L]

Hi Doc,

Is this disc marked 'Waffen-SS' or something on the back?

Matt

[Doc]

Hi Matt,

No it is not marked, the fact that it belonged to an SS troop can be found out from contemporary documents (Hungarian War History Archives)
Doc

[Matt L]

That's good to know- the 12. verst******228;rkte-Polizei-Panzer-Kompanie doesn't appear specifically in any OOB references I checked, so I had wondered if the lack of 'SS' could indicate that it was a late incarnation or section of one of the non-SS Polizei units. Thus far I've only seen discs from some of the non-German SS volunteer units lack the designation 'SS'- this one's new to me

Matt

[mr.dogtag]

Very nice tag indeed.
Congrats!
Al

[erichcraciun]

Very nice!

[Doc]

Matt, Al and Erich,

Thank you to all your kind words.

Dear Matt, here is some information on these polizei units

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2889

http://www.germanpolice.org/index2.h...o-r-panzer.htm

Doc

[Doc]

…and a useful reference material on this units.
Doc

[Doc]

...or

[Matt L]

Dear Matt, here is some information on these polizei units

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2889

http://www.germanpolice.org/index2.h...o-r-panzer.htm

Doc

Interesting- but these don't denote the unit as being part of the SS-Polizei - or is that a given for the Ordnungspolizei?

[Doc]

Budapest 1944/45

Dear Matt,<o></o>
<o></o>

The great majority of serious studies in military history that cover the seige of Budapest mention the presence of the 12th SS pol.panz.komp. These are as follows: <o></o>
<o></o>

- Die Schlacht um Budapest 1944/45. Stalingrad an der Donau. by Krisztian Ungvary; <o></o>
- Battle for Budapest by Krisztian Ungvary;<o></o>
- The siege of Budapest – 100 Days in World War II. (Foreword by John Lukacs) Krisztian Ungvary
- Festung an der Donau/Eröd a Duna mentén (German-Hungarian language book on the Budapest siege), by Szamveber Norbert (Chief of Hungarian War History Archives)

<o></o>
The report of the 12th SS pol.panz.komp. dated 19 November 1944 sent to the 22nd SS Cavalry Division is kept by the Hungarian War History Archives (I will try to get hold of a photocopy of this report from the Archives). They call themselves 12th SS pol.panz.komp.in this report. <o></o>
<o></o>

Based on evidence kept by the War History Archives, the following troops took part int he defence of Budapest (cf.Ungvary-Szamveber):


Ungarische Truppen:
- 10. ID: 7500 Mann
- 12. Res.ID: 4000 Mann
- Teile 1.PzD: 5000 Mann
- Teile 1.KD: 1000 Mann
- 1., 6., 7., 10., 13., 16., 24. StuG-Abteilungen: 2000 Mann
- Flak: 1., 201., 204., 206., 207., 208. Flak-Abt, 52. SF-Flak-Abt: 2000 Mann
- Sicherungsbattalion Budapest: 800 Mann
- 1. u. 2. Uni-Sturm-Battalione: 1000 Mann
- VIII., IX, IV Pionierbat. VI/2, VII/", IX/1., 110., 112., 153. Pionierkompanie, VII. u. VIII Pion-Ers-Komp. 72/101 und 72/106 Hochspannungs-Sperren-Komp., 134., 138., 401., 404. Brückenbau-Kolonnen, I/1., I/2., III/1, III/2 Baukompanien, 101., 102. Sturmbootkomp., 201., 202., 203., Sonder-Ingineur-Battalion, 102. Entgiftungbat., 101. Herstellungsbat., 101., 102., 104. Eisenbahn-Bau-Bat., 107., 110., 111. Eisenbahn-Bau-Komp., 101., 109. Betriebskomp., 104. Gerätekolonne, 101. Hochspannung-Abteilung: 7000 Mann
- Beszterceer, Galantaer, Pécser, Székelyudvarhelyer und Zilaher Gandarmeriebattalione: 3240 Mann
- Polizei-Sturm-Bat.: 1630 Mann
- Vannay-Battalion (Landwehr): 638 Mann
- Sturmbat. Budapest I. u. II: 1000 Mann
- Staatsschutz-Bat. 500 Mann
- Kampfgruppen (Berend, Korányi, Déri, Morlin, Viharos): 2000 Mann
- Artillerie (12 Batterien): 500 Mann
- Institute und Nachschubtrupen: 2800 Mann
- Partei-Freiwillige: 1500 Mann
- KISKA: 7000 Mann

Insgesamt: 51.100 Mann


Deutsche Truppen:
- 8.SS KD: 8000 Mann
- 22.SS Kd: 11.345 Mann
- 13. PZD: 4983 Mann
- PzGrD FHH: 7255 Mann
- Teile 271. VGrD: 1000 Mann
- 1.SS-Polizei-Rgt: 700 Mann
- 12.SS-Polizei-Panzer-Komp.: 100 Mann
- 12. Flak-Sturm-Rgt: 1000 Mann
- 40/I sFlak-Abt.: 500 Mann
- 573. sFlak-Abt.: 200 Mann
- Bataillon Europa: 300 Mann
- Kampfruppen : 1500 Mann
- Batallion z.b.V. 500: 200 Mann
- Sonstige Truppenteile: 2500 Mann
- Heerestruppen: 1500 Mann
Insgesamt: 41.080 Mann

Insgesamt: 92.200 Mann.

ier die Ist-Stärken der Einheiten am 24.12.1944:
- 8.SS KD: 8.000 Mann, 30 Geschütze, 29 Pz. und Stug, 17 PAK
- 22.SS KD: 11.345 Mann, 37 Geschütze, 17 Pz. und Stug, 14 PAK
- PzGrD Feldherrnhalle: 7.255 Mann, 38 Geschütze, 24 Pz. und Stug, 9 PAK
- 13 PzD: 4.983 Mann, 35 Geschütze, 17 Pz und StuG, 8 PAK
- 271. VGrD: 1.000 Mann, 6 Geschütze, 4 Pak
- 1. SS Pol.Rgt: 700 Mann,
- 40/I. FlakAbt.: 500 Mann, 12 Geschütze
- 12.SS Pol.Pz.Komp.: 100 Mann
- sonstige Kampfgruppen: 1.500 Mann, 10 PAK
- 12. Sturm-Flak-Abt.: 1.000 Mann, 48 Geschütze
- 573. Flak-Abt.: 200 Mann, 12 Geschütze
- Bataillon Europa: 300 Mann
- Batallion z.b.V. 500: 200 Mann
- Nichtkombattante Truppen: 2.500 Mann
- Heerestruppen (IX.SS.Geb.K.): 1.500 Mann, 9 Geschütze
- Verwundete, Kranke: 1.500 Mann
Insgesamt: 42.600 Mann, 234 Geschütze, 87 Pz. und StuG, 62 PAK

Ungarische Truppen:
- 10. ID: 7.500 Mann, 25 Geschütze, 3 PAK
- 12 .Res.D.: 4.000 Mann, 26 Geschütze, 12 PAK
- 1 Pz.D.: 5.000 Mann, 3 Geschütze, 7 Pz. und StuG., 3 PAK
- Strumbatallione der TU: 1.000 Mann
- Alarmbatallion "Vannay": 1.000 Mann, 1 PAK
- Teile 1.KD: 1.000 Mann, 8 Geschütze, 4 PAK
- 6 StuG.Abten: 2.000 Mann, 30-32 Pz. und StuG, 8 PAK
- 6 Flak und Scheinwerfer-Abten: 2.000 Mann, 168 Geschütze
- 5 Gendarm-Batallione: 1.500 Mann
- Pionier- und Techniker-Einheiten: 7.000 Mann,
- Schutzbatallion „Budapest”: 800 Mann, 4 PAK
- 2 Sturmbatallione: 1.000 Mann
- Kampfgruppen: 2.000 Mann, 10 PAK
- Schutzeinheiten: 300 Mann
- HeeresArt.: 500 Mann, 20-30 GEschütze
- Kampfgruppe der Polizei: 7.000 Mann
- Nichtkombattanten: 3.000 Mann
- Parteintruppen: 1.500 Mann
- Hilfstruppen, Arbeitskommandos: 7.000 Mann

Insgesamt: 55.100 Mann, 250-260 Geschütze, 37-39 Pz. und StuG, 55 PAK<o></o>
<o></o>
Best regards,<o></o>
Doc<o></o>

[Matt L]

Ah, okay- then it's simply a case of these other references not being entirely correct then. If there's a contemporary document that has the unit denoted as 12. SS-Polizei- Panzer-Kompanie, then that's the best evidence I'd say. I do wonder if initially they weren't formally consdiered an SS unit though- that would account for the lack of 'SS' on the disc. Is it possible that the Ordnungspolizei were separate for a time and at some point 'absorbed' by the Waffen-SS?

Matt

[Matt L]

I just found out today that it was on 24. February, 1943- All Polizei-Regimenter redesignated SS-Polizei-Regimenter, but were not specifically part of the Waffen-SS (Deutsche Erkennungsmarken des zweiten Weltkrieges, Jean Höidal 1999)

This could explain why some references don't describe the units as being 'SS', but the document from 1944 does. This suggests that your disc, doc, is actually from before 24.2.1943 since it does not have 'SS' in the unit, and certainly explains why there's no 'Waffen-SS' on it...

Matt

[Doc]

Dear Matt,
Thank you very much for your informative and highly useful comments. I learnt a lot from it...as usual.
Doc