Help on some ID disc's please

[Matt L]

Hi Matt,
First of all, thanks again. It wouldn't take much to get me confused, but I think I'm following so far. I'll post a straight on picture of the first 2 discs. It will get a little better view of the "f"
Regards, Mitch

No worries Mitch- if anything isn't quite clear, please feel free to say so

That 'f' is just one of a large number of variations you'll see on Erkennungsmarken. Some are sans-serif like that one, some are serif Roman 'font', some are even oddly stylized- the main point is there was NO standard type.

[Matt L]

This is #2 with out the glare. It doesn't mean much but the letters and part of slot are full of hard clay.
Later , Mitch

If you want to clean it better, just soak it in some really hot water and then take an old toothbrush to it with some soap- the dirt/clay will come out and you won't harm the patina on the disc.

I still have issues with this one though- it just doesn't sit right with me but I can't point to anything specific just now. If I can find a text match in my fakes database, that'll be something, but if there isn't one, it'll have to remain just my own personal reservation. As I wrote before, the text is correct, there aren't any characteristics that really say 'fake', and overall it looks pretty good. The only problem is that it's a very heavily-faked type of disc, so my usual position is that one must be proven to be authentic rather than the other way around unless it just screams 'authentic' (which to me this one doesn't). But that's just me

Matt

[Matt L]

Well, I found no 'font' matches in my fakes database, so I can't formally say anything bad about those two discs- which is kind of nice as I really didn't want to have to say that I knew for sure they are bad So you may well have a whole set of winners there Mitch- the GD one especially is a rare one.

Matt

[mr.dogtag]

Hi,
GD dogtag is ok for sure. I have found one like this myself.
Regards
Al

[mr.dogtag]

However I'm very concerned about St.Kp.G.E.B. 284 - looks like popular fakes from St.Petersburg, Russia. Personally I would get rid of this one myself. Better to have one dubious tag less than keep asking yourself wether it's ok or not ( especially that won't probably get a 100% positive answer anyway)
Regards
Al

[M. A. Miller]

Thanks

Thanks Matt for all your input. I appreciate all the time and effort. Al, Thanks for your input and I have already put the questionable dogtag in my repro pile , which is growing unfortunately. I think I but one good thing , I'm learning !! the GD dogtag came with a group of ground dug items from one person. I wanted to make sure it went together. Everything went through the proper authorities and the last known ,close enough ,relative died in 1990. It came with a battle damaged belt buckle , a bullion cufftitle remnant, and breast eagle remnant and the ID tag. The tag was cleaned , so I didn't know if it was right. The rest is as dug. I really don't collect this ground-dug type of group. I will post a picture if no one is offended.
Regards, Mitch

[Matt L]

That's great Mitch I'm glad to hear that you have good reason to belive the GD disc is real and I'd love to see the associated items.

Matt

[M. A. Miller]

Group

This is posted to offend nobody. To the best of my knowledge all proper authorities and procedures have been followed pertaining to this group.
Regards, Mitch

[M. A. Miller]

cufftitle

Bullion cufftitle

[M. A. Miller]

The rest

another view

[JimM]

Fsp. Betr. Komp. f. 4/40

I have the stamroller #1 tag for "Fsp. Betr. Komp. f. 4/40, but mine is zinc with blood type 'O'.

I have it recorded as Telephone Operating Company F, Signal Battalion 4, 40th Signals Regiment.

[CSP]

Matt (et al):
I wanted to contribute to this thread, yet my comments are not directly about dog tags, but rather directed to the issue raised about Ersatz und Ausbildungbataillone.

Prior to the war (Poland 1939) Wehrkreise were in fact "the Army". Wehrkreise were for all intents and purposes Armee Corps as well as area commands. They were responsible for the full range of peacetime functions...recruit, equip, train and plan, etc.

War split the Wehrkreise in to the field army (Feldheer) and the Repacement Army (Ersatzheer)....sometimes called the home army. In fact, a separate command was set up under Fromm as Chef der Heeresreustung und Befehlshaber des Ersatzheer. It was responsible for keeping the field army in the field with equipment and replacements. The Wehrkreise commanders became the field army corps commanders (certainly there were exceptions) and the deputy Wehrkreise commanders took over the command of Wehrkreise (certainly there were exceptions). As Germany conqured territory, new Wehrkreise were created to expand the system in the occupied territories.

Training was done by the division to which the recruit was assigned. When regiments of the divisions went to war, a training battalion cadre remained behind. These battalions usually had the number of the parent regiment...and were called Ersatz Bataillonen. Units under division size left behind Ersatz Kompanien...again often with the same unit number.

Marschkompanien were units where trained recruits were enroute to the field units....and were temporary organizations...numbering was often sequential in terms of trips made. I am not sure these units were issued dogtags at all...would not make sense I guess.

In late 1942, the Wehrkreis system/Ersatz battalions were split in two components: units responsible for induction, initial issue and rudimentary military training were called Ersatzeinheiten. The units to which basic recruits were then transfered for full training in their designated specialities were called Ausbildungseinheiten. Both generally retained the numbering of the corresponding field units, but the Ausbildungs units were split away in many cases (almost two thirds) and sent to the occupied territories.

The reason for this split was to use training troops as occupation troops and also to train troops closer to the fronts and in some cases, use them against partisans (thus providing security as well as experience).

Not all such units were sent to occupied territories as mentioned and those that remained in Germany together were called Erstaz und Ausbildungsbataillone.

I may have not said this all clearly and there is room for error and certainly exceptions, but this is basically why dog tag-ology has so many variations on the same theme. Hope it helps.

Nice GD dog tag, by the way...

[Matt L]

When regiments of the divisions went to war, a training battalion cadre remained behind. These battalions usually had the number of the parent regiment...and were called Ersatz Bataillonen. Units under division size left behind Ersatz Kompanien...again often with the same unit number.

These 'training cadres' were called the 'Stammkompanie' and interestingly a large percentage of discs one is likely to see are marked 'Stammkompanie'. Some basic research has shown that sometimes men served in the Stammkompanie for as much as a year before heading to field units, so it was by no means a permanent posting. The frequency of these discs' appearance suggests that it may have been rather shorter though.

Marschkompanien were units where trained recruits were enroute to the field units....and were temporary organizations...numbering was often sequential in terms of trips made. I am not sure these units were issued dogtags at all...would not make sense I guess.

Actually, they did. My thinking is, however, that such discs were simply replacements for ones lost as at least a portion of the men in Marschkompanien were men returning from convalescence after being wounded, and a Feldlazarett or facility in Germany seem to have been good places for Erkennungsmarken to be lost. Since a Marschkompanie was a unit that a soldier was associated with to head back to the front, it makes sense that this would have been where he'd be issued a new disc if it was needed.

In late 1942, the Wehrkreis system/Ersatz battalions were split in two components: units responsible for induction, initial issue and rudimentary military training were called Ersatzeinheiten. The units to which basic recruits were then transfered for full training in their designated specialities were called Ausbildungseinheiten. Both generally retained the numbering of the corresponding field units, but the Ausbildungs units were split away in many cases (almost two thirds) and sent to the occupied territories.

Not all such units were sent to occupied territories as mentioned and those that remained in Germany together were called Erstaz und Ausbildungsbataillone.

This is why one will often see discs marked 'Ers. Btl.' or 'Ers. u. Ausb. Btl.' but only very rarely 'Ausb. Btl.' alone. Men would have already had a disc from their initial Ersatz unit before being transferred to an Ausbildungs unit.

[CSP]

nicely done Matt...thanks

[Matt L]

I just added a couple of details to what you wrote Scott- a very good, concise explanation of a sometimes confusing system

Matt