Named panzer group with docs and soldbuch

[WWIIBuff]

Hi all,

I'm being offered a small Panzer grouping with medals, documents, pictures, and his soldbuch. I'm not very knowledgeable on the paper stuff so I would appreciate your opinions.

Thanks

[WWIIBuff]

Panzer grouping

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[WWIIBuff]

Panzer group

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[WWIIBuff]

Panzer group

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[Hank C.]

Good looking group, I believe. You might post the 2 documents in the paper forum to get opinions, but they look okay to me.

Hank

[douglynn]

great set its a wp not a soldbuch

[MisterX]

Everythink looks ok, nice small grouping

[WWIIBuff]

Panzer Group

Thanks for the comments guys. There is actually more to the group but I just don't know anything about the paper items. Here is a shot of some more items in the group.

[Ian Jewison]

Can't say anything about the awards but the citations for numbered assault badges are rare......combined with the Wehrpaß very nice!!!

Can you show larger scans of the EK I and Pz.Kpf.Abz. III Stufe?

/Ian

[Don D.]

Can you get larger scans of the badges? It is always interesting to put the badges with the award dates to establish production time lines.
Don

[CSP]

John:
Some of the awards and documents in this grouping are fairly scare to rare...as I thnk you know. Good advice would be to thoroughly research the entire grouping before going in for the money. The award document information is key to determining if this group is original (or put together or part of each with all original documents or some original and some faked). I must say from a glance, the documents have the right look, but it never hurts to make sense of what is written on the documents.

It takes time, which you are best suited to use, but I made a quick review myself. Take the EK I document...for me it was the easiest to back track on...Generalmajor Radowitz signed it as Division Commander. Looking him up, he was an Oberst in September 1944 - the month prior to the action that earned this Leutnant the EK I - and acting commander of the 23. Panzer-Division (ie., only the Division Führer versus the Kommandeur) at the time. But was promoted to general officer shortly threafter. So, his signature here as Generalmajor and Division Kommandeur is one he made as a relatively new general and, thus, the informatioon squares with the facts on the document. Additionally, looking at what the 23. Panzer-Division was doing in October 1944, I came a cross a notation that it was cited in the Wehrmachtsbericht for 4.10.44 ( a week earlier) stating:

"Bei den Kämpfen in Siebebürgen hat sich die württ.-bad. 23 Panzerdivision unter Führung von Genmaj. von Radowitz in Angriff und Abwehr besonderers ausgezeichnet."

or roughly:

Under the command of Radowitz, the division performed excellently in attacks and defenseive battles around Siebebürgen.

You can compare (maybe) where Siebebürgen is on a map with the entry for this time frame in his Wehrpaß noting "Raum (in the vicinity of) Klausenburg, where he was engaged in a defensive fight from 11 September to 12 October 1944. If they are light years away from one another, this would raise some suspicion.

So, this verifies that he was a Generalmajor at the time and actually sites the month and possible vicinity location that Leutnant Mehler probably won the award...more of the kind of "provenance" one would want to do on each award document before sinking the thousands of dollars I suspect this runs, in to owning it.

The other signatures I cannot easily translate ( I worked backwards on Radowitz, ie., seing who the division commander was and translating from that versus having any real ability to make out the signature at a glance)...nor quickly look up...but they should not be too difficult...especially the PAB III Stuffe. This and the other two main documents have regimental commander signatures, so one would suspect they were DKiG and or KC winners.

I am going through all of this because it is important to document collecting and particularly helpful with groupings.

My own award document collecting interests had me put my eyes on a grouping being offered by a long-time and popular (in the sense that most know of this outfit) dealer. I saw it and handled it at the Max, but was unable to research it at the show, so was ultimately unwilling to lay out the money there and then....I say 'ultimately' because I was tempted. Fortunately, I waited. One of the award documents in the grouping is a standard, printed TDB...very, very rare (one more often sees the unit typed versions). I even had one of my best friends - who is superb at this sort of thing - research the signatures, etc ., as I do above, and he concluded it all looked good. However, the TBD award docuemnt was accompanied by a unit version that said the guy knocked out a T34. Only problem is the Panzer-Jäger unit he received the award in fought only in Nord Afrika and Italy. It may be a legitimate grouping, but it is awful hard to determine how this guy knocked out a T34 in Italy...I am not aware of any of the Allies using these in Italy (or any where). Because I cannot explain it - I will not spend the money on it because I believe the only explanation would be speculative.

I recommend that you do the same kind of thing with this grouping.

[Gary T]

The Panzerkampfabziechen II Stufe is signed by Oberst Joachim Sander (DKiG 24.03.1943 with Pz. Regt. 201, RK 27.09.1943 as Kdr. Pz. Regt. 23).

The Panzerkampfabzeichen in Silber is signed by Oberst Werner-Ehrenfeucht. He took over command of Pz. Regt. 23 on 13th October 1942 when Oberst Arnold Burmeister took command of Panzergrenadier Brigade 23 from Oberst von Bodenhausen.

The Panzerkampfabziechen III Stufe is signed by Oberstleutnant Max Prinz zu Waldeck and Pyrmont (DKiG 08.05.1943 with Pz. Jg. Abt. 611)

There's certainly nothing wrong with the documents but I can't comment on the awards...most document collectors are rightly wary of such groups. Certain dealers see such groups as an easy way to dispose of fakes on collectors whose main collecting area is not awards. I'm not saying that in this case.

Was this the set that was sold on Detlev's site a couple of months back? The documents were nice but I've zero interest in physical awards so I passed on it.

[Gene]

Isn't the panzer assault badge in silver itself is very rare, as it's for the "Panzerkampfwagen" Abzeichen?

[Simon O.]

Gary's right. If it all comes from the family then fair enough, if not...who knows.

Makes sure the badges haven't had a premium put on them just because they're part of a group.

[WWIIBuff]

Panzer group

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Scott I really appreciate the specific advice. You example is a true testament to how we should look at these things and believe me, I took notes.

Gary I'm not sure what Detlev sold so I don't know if it is the same one or not. I got the impression that this seller has had this a while so I don't think it's the same one. The group does however come with certifications from Detlev on the two numbered badges.

It is a really nice group in my opinion (before I've finalized any research on it) but I feel that the sellers price is a bit extreme. I've seen other groups without the badges, but with award docs for DKiG and RK, go for less money. Without divulging what his price is, what do you guys think would be a fair price for this group? It also includes his photo album and his Bundeswehr uniform.