schwer Panzer Abteilung 502 Soldbuch

[Ian Jewison]

Here is one of my favourite Panzer Soldbücher for you guys to comment on, look at etc.

It belonged to Uffz. Erich Shmidt. The first unit I haven't a clue what it is, however he his other units were Panzer Regiment 204 of 22 Panzer Division and schwere Panzer Abteilung 502.
Pz.Abt. 502 had a 7 Ritterkreuzträger, including Oberleutnant d.R. Otto Carius EL.

[Ian Jewison]

Page 4 showing his units......

[Ian Jewison]

Page 22 showing his awards:

15.7.1942 Armoured Assault Badge in Silver
30.1.1943 Iron Cross 2nd Class
1.12.1944 Armoured Assault Badge in Silver II. Grade (25 days)
1.2.1945 Wound Badge in Black
6.2.1945 Iron Cross 1st Class
1.3.1945 Armoured Assault Badge in Silver III. Grade (50 days)

The awards from 1945 are authorised by Leutnant Adolf Rinke RKT.

/Ian

[Akira Takiguchi]

Very interesting and desirable one! What immediately caught my attention were:

1. The stamp says <b>Panzer-Abteilung 502</b> while handwriting reads <b>s.Pz.Abt.502</b> with <i>schwere</i> (heavy). Once I read someone says that one of the sPzAbt-en was officially without "s", but most likely he based his argument on such a stamp (only a guess but).

2. s.Pz.Abt.502 was renamed to s.Pz.Abt.511 as of Jan 5th, 1945 by the order Gen.St.d.H./Org.Abt. Nr.I/30724/44g. according to Schneider. The book keeps calling the unit 502.

[Rick White]

Hi Akira,

Interestingly, Tessin says the 502 was renamed 511 on Jan 31(rather than Jan 5) and does not make a distinction of it being a schwere Abt. However, if you look at the "511" entry on page 35, Tessin says the renaming ocurred on Jan 13. So, we hve THREE days to choose from

Rick

[Akira Takiguchi]

Date... what date? Date of order, or date of effectiveness? The same problem with medals...

My date is from <i>Schneider</i> (Tiger in Combat I) and it must be the date of order. Maybe made effective on some other date.

Oh, by the way, the Panzer-Abteilung 502 (2 looks as if 7) stamp is the exact lookalike of Otto Carius' documents. No authenticity problem, just wondering why 502 was preferred over 511! (as we all know the number 502 was "stolen" by s.SS.Pz.Abt.502)

[Rick White]

Hi Akira,

You make my point EXACTLY!

By the way, Ian, very nice book!

Regards,

Rick

[Ian Jewison]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the comment, I quite like it as well!

Hi Akira,
I take it you mean the documents in Carius' book "Tigers in the mud" or "Tiger im Schlamm"? I have an old copy from the 70's before any photos etc. were put in....nice to know it matches his documents!!! I am still looking for a later version but it is long out of date...

Rgds., Ian

[Akira Takiguchi]

Yep, from the book! Are you searching for the English translation?

[Ian Jewison]

I would prefer the English version latest edition, however not had much luck in the past few years.....

[Denis]

Hello
I would have say that 8 KC holders belonged to the Schwere PZ. Abt. 502 :
Bölter Johannes :16/04/44 as Lt. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502 (later ELträger 10/09/44 as Oblt. 1/s.Pz.Abt. 502)
Carius Otto : 04/05/44 as Lt. d.R. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502 (later ELträger 27/07/44 as Lt. d.R. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502)
Carpaneto Alfredo : 28/03/45 as Uffz. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502
Jähde Willy : 16/03/44 as Kdr. s.Pz.Abt. 502
Kerscher Alfred : 23/10/44 as Fw. d.R. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502 (Eichenlaub awarded but not officially recorded on 20/04/45 as Ofw. d.R.)
Kramer Heinz : 06/10/44 as Uffz. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502
Müller Johann : 23/10/44 as Fw. 3/s.Pz.Abt. 502
Rinke Adolf : 17/04/45 as Lt. 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502

Here is a pic of Jähde (well known)

BEst Regards
Denis

[F L Clemens]

Ian,
the first unit listed is the Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve.
This is a seldom seen organization. Based on the few times I have encountered it in documents, I believe that it existed only during the late 41/early 42 period and was under the control of the Ersatzheer - or at least located in the Heimatgebiet. I think that there may have been one company formed for this Reserve in each Wehrkries where panzer recruitment and training was conducted.
It is my speculation that this Reserve was formed in anticipation of a successful conclusion of Barbarossa and so new panzer personnel (and maybe equipment) were being held back in Germany in anticitpation of redeployment to new fronts, such as Afrika rather than being sent to a front which was already winding down (hee, hee). The dissolution of the Reserve apparently occured for the formation of new units (rather than the replenishment of the existing regiments.
I would appreciate hearing if my speculation is fact or just my feverish imagination.

[Ian Jewison]

Hi Frederic ('scuse spelling if incorrect!),

Welcome aboard!
Yes, I thought the entry was that Pz-Kpfw-Res 4 Kp.....however never heard of it and wasn't exactly sure if I was correct!!! Will now try and find out if I have anything in my references regarding it...perhaps not!

Thanks, Ian

[Akira Takiguchi]

Welcome to the forum, Frederick (who provided great data and translation for the book <i>Circle of Fire</i>, which could have ended as a cheap reprint of Muck's Cholm book without his efforts). Never heard of <i>Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve</i>... How little I know... From the book entry it looks like a batallion- or regiment sized formation... And it IS a <i>Feldtruppe</i>... And why is <i>Kriegsstammrolle</i> empty? The mystery thickens!

[F L Clemens]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the welcome! It's great to have a place like this where people are serious about their Soldbuchs...hee, hee.

Thanks also, Akira, for the Cholm comment. I regret that book could have been better than it turned out to be, but when you work with amateur publishers (and amateur authors) there are bound to be glitches.

Concerning, Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve -
- I think we can be sure it was battalion-sized at most, otherwise we would have found more evidence already. You can't hide a regiment from us that easily!
- No, I don't believe it was a true Feldtruppenteil, even though it appears in that section. As we know, there are no concrete rules in filling out Soldbuchs, and I believe the Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve is a unit which did not fit easily into the Ersatz versus Feld distinction.
Here are my thoughts -
- I think it contained men who had completed their training under the Ersatzheer, but were held in the Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve by the Wehrkreis pending a decision on formation of new panzer units versus replenishment of existing units.
- Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve is not the kind of unit which one would expect to be committed to fighting on the front as it is.
- There is no clear subordination for the Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve, so I would believe it was not have been under any field commands, like the FEB or AWS.
- This man was used to form 4./PR204 and it appears likely that his entire company (4.) of Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve was used as well.
- The process of the formation and existence of the Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve was probably very short (a month or so?) which would explain our lack of sources on it as well as the lack of a Kriegstammrollennummer (prob was same as that for PR204).

IT would be useful if Ian could scour the Soldbuch for the likely dates to narrow down the time-period for the Panzer-Kampfwagen-Reserve.