Einsatzgruppen dog tag

[akriener]

If wrong forum, please move. Has anyone seen something like this before?

84895146_1_x.jpg 84895146_2_x.jpg 84895146_3_x.jpg

[mevm36]

There are to many things wrong with this tag that makes me flag this as a fake. Firstly there were regulations on how the tag should be laid out, with the unit name on top and the EK number on the bottom. This was not always the case so the EK number would typically be on the top of or on the bottom of the unit name as the unit name was always longer so near the middle or widest part of the tag. Also, “Sicherheitspolizei” would never be spelt out as such. The correct marking would be “Sich.” for security or “Sich.D.” for security division. The edges of this tag also look as if they have been prematurely aged or scraped and the wear is to uneven from front and back of the tags.

In other words, I believe this to be a fake. I would not spend any money on it.

Marcus

[Sturmmann]

IMO OK tag, just as it should be.

[akriener]

There are to many things wrong with this tag that makes me flag this as a fake. Firstly there were regulations on how the tag should be laid out, with the unit name on top and the EK number on the bottom. This was not always the case so the EK number would typically be on the top of or on the bottom of the unit name as the unit name was always longer so near the middle or widest part of the tag. Also, “Sicherheitspolizei” would never be spelt out as such. The correct marking would be “Sich.” for security or “Sich.D.” for security division. The edges of this tag also look as if they have been prematurely aged or scraped and the wear is to uneven from front and back of the tags.

In other words, I believe this to be a fake. I would not spend any money on it.

Marcus

Thanks for your detailed analysis Marcus. Are there any valid Einsatzgruppe ID tags that members have shared on this forum or are they truly a rarity?

[Sturmmann]

Here is one of mine, belonged to an estonian Sipo batallion soldier.
Yes very detailed anaylsis by user mevm36 but not correct.
These tags are not often available but I would not call these "truly a rarity".

[Frontalschaden]

Hello

Firstly there were regulations on how the tag should be laid out, with the unit name on top and the EK number on the bottom.

No, that is wrong! there was only the regulation, what should have been at the dogtag: Unit and dogtagnumber. That`s it ! There never was a regulation where the number have to be. (Could also be at the backside)

Also, “Sicherheitspolizei” would never be spelt out as such. The correct marking would be “Sich.” for security or “Sich.D.” for security division.

That is wrong, too! Origional Sicherheitspolizei Einsatzkommando dogtags are ever (!) like this one, and the unit is never abbreviated.
There never was an official Wehrmacht abbreviation list in the war. Look at the abbreviation for Regiment onn original dogtags: it was abbreviated as "R", "Rgt", "Rg", or "Reg". All these abbreviations are contemporary.It is the same like "A", "Abt", or "Abtlg" for Abteilung. and so on...

In other words, I believe this to be a fake.

In this case you are right. ????
IMO dogtag is not good.

Here you can see some nice originals:


https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...ei-einsatz-kdo



Best regards, Fronti

[akriener]

Hello




No, that is wrong! there was only the regulation, what should have been at the dogtag: Unit and dogtagnumber. That`s it ! There never was a regulation where the number have to be. (Could also be at the backside)



That is wrong, too! Origional Sicherheitspolizei Einsatzkommando dogtags are ever (!) like this one, and the unit is never abbreviated.
There never was an official Wehrmacht abbreviation list in the war. Look at the abbreviation for Regiment onn original dogtags: it was abbreviated as "R", "Rgt", "Rg", or "Reg". All these abbreviations are contemporary.It is the same like "A", "Abt", or "Abtlg" for Abteilung. and so on...





In this case you are right. ????
IMO dogtag is not good.

Here you can see some nice originals:


https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...ei-einsatz-kdo



Best regards, Fronti

So by that logic the one Sturmmann is also fake because ours appear quite identical. He posted his in the thread you shared and no one seemed to raise a flag at it however.

[Battlerelic]

Original tag. Nothing wrong with it.

[mevm36]

It is only my opinion, but I stay away from any erkennungsmarke that is marked with the SS Runes or the above “Sicherheitspolizei Einsatzkommando” marked tags. There is far to much controversy over these tags and far to many fakes produced over the years. I am of the belief (and again my opinion only) that the Einsatzkommandos were such notorious subgroups of the Einsatzgruppen, that this lends to fakes being produced. Also, history has proven that some members of the Einsatzkommando (perhaps all?) were volunteers from various police groups or those convicted of military crimes and were sent to these groups as punishment. Many of those volunteers, once the killing began, requested transfer out of the groups due to the psychological effects that this mass murder was having on the individuals. I do not think that these tags would have been issued to these individuals. So, who would they have been issued to? Perhaps rear echelon troops such as administrative staff? But again, these staff would have been members of a police regiments and would have had the corresponding tags.

One also has to consider the secrecy of these groups within the Wehrmacht and SS in general. The einsatzgruppen were not a publicized or talked about organization. Most regular soldiers were not aware of their existence but only heard rumour of. There were kept very secretive due to the nature of their work. Why would erkennungsmarke be produced for these groups thus corroborating their existence? It does not make sense. Again these are only my opinions, Let the differing opinions begin...all are welcome...

Marcus

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

everything was previously said by me in this topic and in the next post i made in 2016 :

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...ei-einsatz-kdo

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...76#post6779876

those EKM are NOT for Einsatzkommandos, but for Einsatz-Kommando units.

Totally different units, forget the over used myth of the Einsatzgruppen/Einsatzkommandos/Sonderkommandos (under the direct command of the RSHA), which were ad hoc units, almost like the US "Combat Command" units, which were including platoons from various units. Most of the members of the Einsatzgruppen kept the dog tag from their original unit/administration as it was the use.

Those EKM were maybe the ones of local Schutzmannschaften units, only archives and local studies may provide more infos on the case.

For example there was an Einsatz-Kommando III at least from April 1941 in occupied Alsace (at the time Gau Baden).

The unit had three subunits :

- Einsatz-Kommando III/1, located in Strasbourg
- Einsatz-Kommando III/2 (location still unknown, maybe Colmar ?)
- Einsatz-Kommando III/3, located in Mulhouse

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So in my opinion, the EKM is legit, and it may be from one of the hoards that was find in the recent years.

See You

Vince

[Yubari]

I like the tag. Even from back side it looks convincing.

[fox-terier]

So in my opinion, the EKM is legit, and it may be from one of the hoards that was find in the recent years.

Vince

+1

[akriener]

Hi,

everything was previously said by me in this topic and in the next post i made in 2016 :

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...ei-einsatz-kdo

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...76#post6779876

those EKM are NOT for Einsatzkommandos, but for Einsatz-Kommando units.

Totally different units, forget the over used myth of the Einsatzgruppen/Einsatzkommandos/Sonderkommandos (under the direct command of the RSHA), which were ad hoc units, almost like the US "Combat Command" units, which were including platoons from various units. Most of the members of the Einsatzgruppen kept the dog tag from their original unit/administration as it was the use.

Those EKM were maybe the ones of local Schutzmannschaften units, only archives and local studies may provide more infos on the case.

For example there was an Einsatz-Kommando III at least from April 1941 in occupied Alsace (at the time Gau Baden).

The unit had three subunits :

- Einsatz-Kommando III/1, located in Strasbourg
- Einsatz-Kommando III/2 (location still unknown, maybe Colmar ?)
- Einsatz-Kommando III/3, located in Mulhouse

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So in my opinion, the EKM is legit, and it may be from one of the hoards that was find in the recent years.

See You

Vince

Appreciate everyone weighing in, even if there seems to be some controversy of the origins of these types of tags. One thing I am NOT understanding is the difference between Einsatzkommandos and Einsatz-Kommando units. A google search does not differentiate between the two. And it sounds like while these may not be "rare" I have not seen one before. Does anyone have any leads on better condition ones?

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

the term "Einsatz" is similar to the term "special" in English for the military. So it is not only used to reflect a "murderous" task.

The Einsatzgruppen were created with the Anschluss of Austria, and such units would be used or planned to be used in all the occupied countries (including the UK).
Those units were small groups of various specialists in relation to the police and secret service duties.

The Einsatz-Kommandos used in 1940 in Alsace are probably very similar (various specialists for police/secret service duties), but those ones had a temporary duty, and they were not used for murderous operations.

The Einsatzgruppen in the East started to use sub-unit sized forces (called Einsatzkommandos) of a few dozen of Sipo-SD/SS members which would "organize" police and secret service duties, but also mass killings.
For the mass killings, they were helped by Orpo battalions/regiments, local WH/SS units, but also local Foreign volunteers and militias which were quickly created into battalions.

The Einsatzgruppen (and their Einsatzkommandos) were temporary mobile units, which followed the German Army Groups. Even if they became more static in early 1942, their naming was mostly used like for the US "Task Forces" during WW2. For example, they never had their own EKMs, and all their "social activities" were informal (until they settled in various Sipo-SD Kommandanturen in the East).

People usually think that the 3,000 members of the 4 Einsatzgruppen killed the hundred of thousand of civilians/Jews in the East but it is not true : they were heavily helped by the many other units i listed.
The way the Einsatzgruppen worked is still badly known from the general public, and most books are dealing with the mass killing parts of their job.

Then the Einsatz-Kommando police battalions were permanent local volunteer police units created by the Sipo-SD.
It is possible that those units were involved in mass killings, but only local history can prove that (do not remember that you didn't had to be of the SS or the police to do mass killings during WW2).

See You

Vince

[akriener]

Hi,

the term "Einsatz" is similar to the term "special" in English for the military. So it is not only used to reflect a "murderous" task.

The Einsatzgruppen were created with the Anschluss of Austria, and such units would be used or planned to be used in all the occupied countries (including the UK).
Those units were small groups of various specialists in relation to the police and secret service duties.

The Einsatz-Kommandos used in 1940 in Alsace are probably very similar (various specialists for police/secret service duties), but those ones had a temporary duty, and they were not used for murderous operations.

The Einsatzgruppen in the East started to use sub-unit sized forces (called Einsatzkommandos) of a few dozen of Sipo-SD/SS members which would "organize" police and secret service duties, but also mass killings.
For the mass killings, they were helped by Orpo battalions/regiments, local WH/SS units, but also local Foreign volunteers and militias which were quickly created into battalions.

The Einsatzgruppen (and their Einsatzkommandos) were temporary mobile units, which followed the German Army Groups. Even if they became more static in early 1942, their naming was mostly used like for the US "Task Forces" during WW2. For example, they never had their own EKMs, and all their "social activities" were informal (until they settled in various Sipo-SD Kommandanturen in the East).

People usually think that the 3,000 members of the 4 Einsatzgruppen killed the hundred of thousand of civilians/Jews in the East but it is not true : they were heavily helped by the many other units i listed.
The way the Einsatzgruppen worked is still badly known from the general public, and most books are dealing with the mass killing parts of their job.

Then the Einsatz-Kommando police battalions were permanent local volunteer police units created by the Sipo-SD.
It is possible that those units were involved in mass killings, but only local history can prove that (do not remember that you didn't had to be of the SS or the police to do mass killings during WW2).

See You

Vince

Vince, thank you for a well thought out and detailed response. Much easier to understand the difference now. Are there ID tags for Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos as well? Or were they not easily identifiable due to the nature of their "work"?